'The' Ukraine?
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Hrabia
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Post: #21
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 May 28 07:02)W. R. Wrote:  Good summary. To people who are used to the traditional Russian historical narrative (on this forum it would be yours truly, Osweo and Temnozor) that tells how Kievan Rus evolved into Russia, Ukrainians' wish to be associated with Kievan Rus may be seen as outright stealing.

You mean... do I say Ukraine has no right to claim roots from Kievan Rus? I think I say something opposite. Tongue

(2016 May 28 07:02)W. R. Wrote:  why can't today's Ukrainians do the same and, for example, draw the princes (as well as prominent Rusins) on banknotes?

I have some hryvnas. 1 UAH has Vladimir the Great on it.. 2 UAH has Yaroslav the Wise. On 5 UAH there is Bohdan Khmielnytsky, and on 10 UAH is Ivan Mazepa. So they have two rulers from Kievan Rus.
2016 May 28 12:15
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Phlegethon
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Post: #22
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
Better leave ze Germany to ze Germaniacs then! Or else Blitzkrieg!


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2016 May 28 12:19
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Osweo
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Post: #23
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 May 28 07:02)W. R. Wrote:  Who were the direct ancestors of Ukrainians?
WHICH Ukrainians!
Quote:The Rusins of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, weren't they?
[Image: 2036202.gif]
You can't talk about all the inhabitants of a vast multi-ethnic state like that!

(2016 May 28 00:04)Hrabia Wrote:  Since, like, 9th century
Hombre... no.
(2016 May 28 00:04)Hrabia Wrote:  I wonder, however, why "Czech Republic" is not "The Czech Republic"?
It IS! And that's one of the reasons why nobody really liked the name. I personally have been saying "Chekhiya" since around 2001, and finally the rest of the anglosphere is catching up.
(2016 May 28 00:04)Hrabia Wrote:  Yes, and the name "Polska" is actually an adjective
Haha, I can't believe I never realised that! Big Grin In English we call you the equivalent of Polska zemlya, while the Niemcy say Polaci - a plural ethnonym. Russia on the other hand seems to have invented a special noun - Polsha. What's the nature of this one, in particular, does anybody know?
(2016 May 28 00:04)Hrabia Wrote:  Maybe because of how their language works.
No. It's an absolute joke when you go around telling people to change how they speak. It's quite akin to all this SJW bullshit where we have to use new special terms for deviants who think they're the other sex. I refuse to change my language in the face of external pressure. In the Ukraine. NA Ukraine. I say "na Rusi" anyway!
(2016 May 28 07:02)W. R. Wrote:  I read somewhere, that Ukraine kept the because the word came to the English language through German: die Ukraine → the Ukraine.
Aye, that makes sense. So there is a specific history behind the word as is is, which reveals interesting things about history, and a few idiots want us to just ignore all this and make up new words.
(2016 May 28 11:39)Godyfa Wrote:  But just because they did not have the name Ukrainian doesn't mean they didn't yet exist as an ethnic group.
You don't realise the complicated nature of the reality you're talking about. There were a dozen or so ethnic subgroups who got cobbled together under this term, and several have NEVER accepted it! It was an artificial, top-down, undemocratic and bureaucratic imposition, for the most part. 1991-2015 is the only period when all these components had a real shared political life together, and it was a disaster.
Quote:Regarding the use of "the", it may have been correct when Ukraine was still a region, but since the 20th century and certainly 1991 there has been a nation state whose proper name is Ukraine.
There are VERY few real nation-states on this planet, and the Ukraine is nowhere near approaching the criteria for inclusion under that term!

But wait, we're both English, aren't we? Don't you also think that it just sounds stupid to say "I went to Ukraine last week"???? If it was "I went to Ukrania last week", it would sound FAR more natural. But we have the two-syllable form, like it or not, and it just sounds ridiculous without the The.

Come to think of it, it kind of reminds me of how it KILLS me to say "Pakistani" when the nature of the audience demands it. As I was brought up and taught my native language by my own family, the people concerned were simply "Pakis". If this has negative connotations, that's entirely their own fault for being dirty, child-raping, cousin-fucking, wife-face-acid-pouring savages, not mine! And when I say "Pakistani", I'm uncomfortably conscious that I am being compelled to kiss their brown stinking arses. There are any number of Ukrainian arses I wouldn't mind kissing, but I will NOT do it by changing my speech.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 28 19:45
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Osweo
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Post: #24
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
[Image: 2036203.gif]

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 28 21:49
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Phlegethon
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Post: #25
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
U Crane?

[Image: hydraulic-mobile-crane-1437858.jpg]


Me crane too!

[Image: Grey_Crowned_Crane_Balearica_regulorum_-...auteng.jpg]



Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2016 May 29 14:13
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Post: #26
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 May 28 19:45)Osweo Wrote:  [Image: 2036202.gif]

Meanwhile back in reality... ;)

[Image: ato2-21-15.jpg]
2016 Jun 01 10:01
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Osweo
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Post: #27
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 10:01)Flavius Wrote:  Meanwhile back in reality... ;)
Your reading comprehension's getting really bad. My map was a response to "all Ukrainians" being descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 Jun 01 12:00
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Osweo
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Post: #28
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 10:01)Flavius Wrote:  [Image: ato2-21-15.jpg]
I should say, though, the mapmakers should be congratulated for doing their job well! On the face of it, it seems evil war machines are being opposed by nothing but pretty flags! Shelling is, naturally, only a one-way phenomenon, and these flags nevertheless have helped spread light and colour into an evil grey space. Of course, we won't dwell on the fact that nobody who actually lives in the places shown pronounces them in the way they're written here.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 Jun 01 12:45
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Temnozor
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Post: #29
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 10:01)Flavius Wrote:  Meanwhile back in reality... ;)

[Image: ghoWHPB.jpg]

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2016 Jun 01 15:56
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Post: #30
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 15:56)Temnozor Wrote:  .
[Image: 2036355.jpg]

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 Jun 01 16:24
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