Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
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Peasant
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Post: #51
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 03 22:18)Guiri Wrote:  It's not about offering alternatives, in my opinion, it's about educating our girls differently. Offer any alternatives that are contrary to what they're being raised to believe is desirable and they will be dismissed.

Bit of a contradiction thereTongue
2012 Dec 03 22:39
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Guiri (03-12-2012)
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Post: #52
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
Mustapaita Wrote:Well that's what the corporate media and women's magazines seems to think, but we're talking about what men expect of women. And I think that that, just as what you described above, is often rather conflicting.

Ah well, you're probably right there. Smile It's true, what I was describing was what girls are being educated into in modern times, rather than what individual males personally expect or want. (But to be honest, it wasn't clear to me that this was what you were solely referring to.) And I'm sure there is a vast distance between the two (ie, how girls are being raised and what males need/want). I think both men and women are confused these days about what to expect from the opposite gender and what is expected of them. It's just a big mess.

I still think that offering alternatives is not enough though. Children (both males and females) need to be educated differently, even if only to buffer them from the harmful, misleading effects of modern-day media.



(2012 Dec 03 22:39)Peasant Wrote:  
(2012 Dec 03 22:18)Guiri Wrote:  It's not about offering alternatives, in my opinion, it's about educating our girls differently. Offer any alternatives that are contrary to what they're being raised to believe is desirable and they will be dismissed.

Bit of a contradiction thereTongue

No. Smile I'll make it more clear for you though by re-wording (but retaining the same meaning)...

It's not about offering alternatives, in my opinion, it's about educating our girls differently. IF YOU Offer any alternatives that are contrary to what they're being raised to believe is desirable, they will be dismissed.

Better? Tongue
2012 Dec 03 23:29
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Peasant (03-12-2012)
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RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
What the hell has happened to my reading comprehension? I think I need to stop posting for a while. LOL
2012 Dec 03 23:53
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Post: #54
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 03 21:01)Peasant Wrote:  Spain might be the word you are looking for.
Um, not really? dunno

By the way, Spain often has a lot more radicalism in its politics and education system than you seem to realise, and possibly more than in England in general, although I appreciate my notions of England are often a decade or so out of date. Communist parties poll rather well and so on. As you know, the far left have been able to summon up armies here in living memory. Maybe MY reading comprehension is a bit askew too, tonight, but you seemed to be implying the existence here of a kind of patriarchal structure that hasn't been in evidence actually since the Moors were deported! Big Grin
Quote:So trying to con women by taking advantage of an assumed lack of knowledge is a great European tradition worth clinging to?
I really don't know where you're getting this from.

If anything, I hark back to the world I never saw but hear of in the memories of my parents. A lot of things seemed on the right track then, though they've since been derailed... This was not Victorian excess, and even IN the 1800s things were different to how the feminists seek to portray them.
Quote:Social norms have never been completely static and unchanging before the modern era. They have changed with technology, religion, politics, and environment.
This is sounding like academia speak, which is all very well, but there's plenty of stuff that normal people can point to which HAVE been more or less constant throughout the greater part of our history. Crazy stuff like forcing boys to play with dolls and using gender-neutral s/h/it pronouns ARE new, however. You can't deny that.

Traditionalists are not necessarily conservatives. Traditionalists are more often than not concerned with the SPIRIT of things, rather than the outward manifestation of this. As such, you can be like me and demand that things better suit our historical heritage, without necessarily being a blind dogmatic reactionary.
Quote:Or maybe not completely ignore the perspective of a couple of the women who have posted in this thread.
I have read with great interest the words of a woman here who's actually had a family.

No disrespect to Susi, but her opinions often sound more like theory than anything based too much on experience, though this is to be expected due to her youth, and I'm glad she takes part. She is very articulate, but a lot of what she says, intentionally or not, smacks a little too much to me of unnecessarily conflict-causing feminist stuff. Like someone in a shop talking to the boyfriend rather than the girlfriend: I find it hard to get excited about such an 'outrage'. dunno

Torkilsdohtir, to my mind, seemed too anxious to make a general point on a societal level based on a rather specific situation - that of the computer world, where you are too likely to come into contact with one too many unsocialised geeks. I can't see the rest of her posts now, but it seemed all about people making annoying pre-judgments of her knowledge and so on. Again, this isn't really in the realms of clitorectomies, polygamy and suttee, so I got a bit impatient with it, sorry. Big Grin

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2012 Dec 04 00:51
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Post: #55
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 03 23:53)Peasant Wrote:  What the hell has happened to my reading comprehension? I think I need to stop posting for a while. LOL

Tongue You're alright, mate. Smile



Os Wrote:... you seemed to be implying the existence here of a kind of patriarchal structure that hasn't been in evidence actually since the Moors were deported!

This is interesting to me. Smile

I must admit, upon coming to Spain, I was expecting to observe some kind of widespread social system based on male chauvinism due to having heard a lot of the stereotypes that are out there about Spain and probably Med. countries in general. (Not stereotypes that exist in Australia regarding Spain... I've heard of them from Europeans and Americans both in real life and on these sorts of forums etc.)

But to my surprise, what I've encountered here has been quite the opposite. There is often a deep respect afforded to women here, in particular to mothers and older women (who tend to encompass a more traditional form of femininity), that is almost absent in Anglo-countries. On a side note; it's surprising to me that the birthrate in Spain is so low when there is such an appreciation for maternity, family and children here. (And I've met soooo many childless Spanish women above the age of 35 or women who've only had and will only ever have one child, who obviously LOVE children/babies and are so good with them! Nurturing, caring, gentle, warm and maternal.)

But I'm not sure that Spanish men have much choice but to have a greater respect for women here since Spanish women are, generally speaking, VERY strong, bold, willful, vocal, will take no crap and are even dominating. (Some of them scare me!! Big Grin)

Anyway, on the subject of patriarchal and matriarchal societies, Spain is obviously still patriarchal, (there are but a very small handful of truly matriarchal societies left in the world - and they're located in South America and China) but it certainly comes closer to being matriarchal than any anglo-country. I can't speak for the rest of Europe.
2012 Dec 04 10:48
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Post: #56
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
In case you haven't noticed it youth unemployment in Spain is somewhere around 40% and Spaniards quite often live with their parents till well into their 40s. Taking this into consideration I cannot blame the Spanish for not having more children. If someone should be blamed it is those who have children just because, assuming someone (not them) will have to deal with them later on.

All the Spanish females I ever met were constantly bickering, loud, obnoxious, opinionated and self-centered bitches. I can understand why you feel at home there.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2012 Dec 04 17:34
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Post: #57
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 04 00:51)Osweo Wrote:  Again, this isn't really in the realms of clitorectomies, polygamy and suttee, so I got a bit impatient with it, sorry. Big Grin

That is like saying "oh, my kid abuses prescription pills but at least he isn't doing coke!"

The fact of the matter is women are losing out, and not taking advantage of new technology because of the sexism they experience online.




2012 Dec 04 18:28
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RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
The only sexism I experience is anti-male, and it permeates every sphere of life.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2012 Dec 04 18:37
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RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 04 17:34)Phlegethon Wrote:  In case you haven't noticed it youth unemployment in Spain is somewhere around 40% and Spaniards quite often live with their parents till well into their 40s. Taking this into consideration I cannot blame the Spanish for not having more children. If someone should be blamed it is those who have children just because, assuming someone (not them) will have to deal with them later on.

If looking at the statistics, the crisis has had little to no effect on birthrates in Spain....

Quote:Birth rate (births/1,000 population)

Country Spain
2000 - 9.22
2001 - 9.26
2002 - 9.29
2003 - 10.08
2004 - 10.11
2005 - 10.1
2006 - 10.06
2007 - 9.98
2008 - 9.87
2009 - 9.72
2010 - 10.91
2011 - 10.66
2012 - 10.4

http://www.indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?c=sp&v=25

You'll notice that during the boom years in Spain, birthrates were significantly lower than they have been in the last 3 years.

In any case, the women I've met who I was referring to in my previous post would surely not have been limited in terms of having children due to finances. There are other factors at play, although I'm not entirely sure of what they are yet.

As for Spaniards "quite often" living with their parents well into their 40's, what gives you that idea? Of the very few I know who do, it is due to them taking responsibility and caring for an ill mother or incapacitated parents who would otherwise be left alone in the world. Family members tend to look after each other here.


Phlegethon Wrote:All the Spanish females I ever met were constantly bickering, loud, obnoxious, opinionated and self-centered bitches. I can understand why you feel at home there.

Phlegethon, I've grown familiar enough with your posts over the last 6 years to know that this is your opinion of ALL women, not just Spaniards and myself. Yes, we all know by now how much you despise women. As do most closet homosexuals.



Phlegethon Wrote:The only sexism I experience is anti-male, and it permeates every sphere of life.

I stand corrected on what I said earlier about men only having two effective options available to them when dealing with offence and unfair treatment/comments (ignoring or attacking back), while women have three, with the third being self-victimisation and whinging. I should have said that crying victim is a popular option among women and Phlegethon.
2012 Dec 04 21:21
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RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 04 21:21)Guiri Wrote:  Phlegethon, I've grown familiar enough with your posts over the last 6 years to know that this is your opinion of ALL women, not just Spaniards and myself. Yes, we all know by now how much you despise women. As do most closet homosexuals.

You're just a lame one trick pony. Your pathetic attempts at kitchen psychology are getting kinda old by now.

It is women enforcing their way into all-male environments at any costs by infiltrating legislation, administration and the executive and blocking the courts with frivolous lawsuits - not the other way around. Once the last male habitat is poisoned by them this whole thing will backfire in a very nasty way. There are limits by nature and where laws get abused to tear them down nature will find another way to put them back up with force.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2012 Dec 05 01:09
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