Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
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Susi
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RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 03 13:12)Whiteruthenian Wrote:  This is so true and inspiring. I think I'll go and shave my legs right now!

Confession: I don't shave my legs :x There's so little hair anyways! And it blends in with my pasty skin! I guess that means I'm attractive enough that no boyfriend has ever complained about it. Big Grin

But if you do it, you'll get speed:

[Image: bobbyjulichlegs.jpg]

(2012 Dec 03 14:10)Aramis Wrote:  I was certainly not arguing in favor of such extremes. Neither did I adress you or any specific woman with an imperative to drop all masucilinity from their character and become exclussivly feminine instead. Be what you are.

[Image: 220px-Harpij.jpg]

Quote:No, I was making a general statement, involving both genders as a whole, arguing that no matter how much social pressure and engineering is involved, members of a certain gender will by default of biological determinism be inclined towards a behavior and role in society typical for their (biological) gender.

I think though, we should consider whether these behaviours are actually doing us any good... I don't really believe in this kind of philosophy, that biology is destiny. It seems far too simplistic... things are complicated.

If my role of 'wife' was biologically determined, then is it total rebellion that I'm not particularly interested in it, except in my most fantastical daydreams?

Quote:But to make such an exclusive statement as to say "they're not based in any sort of actuality" is, sorry, but nothing but confirmation bias.

Kind of like biological determinism? Big Grin

Quote: It's all due to sexual dimorphism, not more or less. No social engineering in ape socities involved.

Ape societies have a high degree of sociality or sociableness or whatever you want to call it...

Quote:If women desire to educate themselves, devote more of their life to a career rather than family, or men to turn into stay-at-home dads, let them. But for the love of God, don't encourage it as something which has to be done. Just enable them access to necessary resources if possible.

The subtext I understand: "I don't like where this is going so I want women to stick by the roles that they've been given damn it, by staying in the home and in the kitchen rather than having the freedom to do whatever they want, be it stay at home/in the kitchen or go out and pursue knowledge etc."

Let me know if I have it wrong.

(2012 Dec 03 15:57)Mustapaita Wrote:  Perhaps women are prepared to put more money into their looks, their clothes and their hair?

I mean they wouldn't buy those overpriced things otherwise, right?

As for the computers, cars, etc, I can't say anything about that but I feel everyone gets ripped off in regards to car work.

Women have to put more money into their looks, clothes, hair, etc. in order to conform to social expectations... If I go to meet someone without make up or decent clothes on, I'm judged far more harshly than a man would be (from experience).

[Image: tumblr_lt0vpxYpFM1qzv8a1o1_1280.png]

Oh, and if I want to attract and keep a boyfriend, I have to maintain myself x 1000 because god forbid I let go a little, even if he does and gains a beer stomach or whatever. Rolleyes I used to be less cynical, then an ex (when he was my boyfriend) told me that I need to lose weight so that he can love me.

(2012 Dec 03 17:11)Osweo Wrote:  Whining on the net about gender roles is SOOO unladylike... Big Grin

Whatevs.
[Image: Deal_70396e_1252526.gif]

Quote:Seems to me that you girls here are taking everything FAR too personally. Shops etc. are full of arseholes. So what? Shrug it off? That's what men do. Getting all hot and bothered about it just lends fire to the real male sexists who refer to caricatures of women as led by pure emotion...

I'll get over it when it stops happening.

Quote: Or would you PREFER to have a wimpy emasculated man hanging on your arm!?

As long as he's tall, it's fine. love

Quote:A man is supposed to take a woman out.

(Hilarious) Vignettes about being 'taken out' by men:
1. He expected me to sleep with him because he'd paid for dinner. I'm not a prostitute. (I even offered to split the bill, a regular strategy to avoid that situation)
2. He asked me why I didn't order a salad instead of soup, as soup is apparently highly unladylike and will go straight to my hips.
3. He 'forgot his wallet' and asked me to pay.
4. He groped at me nonstop under the table even when I told him to stop, since he felt like he could because he was "treating" me. I went outside, left him shouting after me that I'm a whore.

This is by no means how all men behave but I'm incredibly leery of being 'taken out' by a man, unless we're splitting the bill or it's not terribly expensive. I don't like having anyone pay for me because they often assume that then I'll sleep with them or at least indulge them in some sort of ... activity. Otherwise they offer to take me out, say they will pay, and then turn it on its head to 'show me' (e.g. "i don't like this gender norm and will make you suffer because of it").

So yeah. I take people out, and I split the cost of things, but I don't like to be 'taken out' because of the shit that surrounds it. Sorry if it bursts the bubble.

Quote:Sorry, but this is life in what's left of traditional European society. Don't like it? Join the legions attempting to destroy it! Ah, but remember, once it IS destroyed, you'll have to learn to like your burqas and sewn up labia. ;)

Maybe I just like mutual respect and shit and want things to work out like I'm a human being rather than an object to seduce?

(2012 Dec 03 18:45)Osweo Wrote:  Anything remaining is just something to live with, as it is NOT that bad.

It does tire one so.

Quote:One thing that the 'upsetting' of established gender patterns in recent history has done is that it has left women quite unsure about what's expected of them. We should attempt to formulate an appealing, emotionally rewarding and at the same time culturally compatible ideal.

Forge our own path. Smile I hope by 'we' you meant 'men and women' Smile I did like your post.

(2012 Dec 03 22:18)Guiri Wrote:  Oh I think women are quite sure of what's expected of them (they're just vastly unaware of the long-term consequences... until it's too late)... a high level of education followed by the pursuit of a power career, making enough money to sustain a lifestyle of shopping, partying, promiscuity and plastic surgery, then after 10 - 15 years or so, consider marriage and and having a baby or two which will swiftly be placed into daycare shortly after birth so she can continue her career whilst now also being lumped with all of the housework, cooking, shopping and the role of primary caregiver to the children while her husband mostly sits on his arse doing f*** all. For those women who decide to forego marriage and motherhood (or leave it too late for them to be an option) they are expected to live a life of extended youth and promiscuity sustained by dressing as if they were 20 years younger than what they are, increasing amounts of plastic surgery, make-up, hair-dye and alcohol.

It's no longer viable to have a one-salary household. The scenario you present is rare enough as it is, but what do you propose to mitigate the problem of having a family where both mother and father must work? And isn't it the husband who is the real fuck up in your scenario, sitting around and doing nothing? There are equally shitty scenarios with men in the starring role but I don't hear them being bandied about

Quote:It's not about offering alternatives, in my opinion, it's about educating our girls differently. Offer any alternatives that are contrary to what they're being raised to believe is desirable and they will be dismissed.

Because girls are stupid and never question anything. Rolleyes We need to be taught by those above us to act in a proper way. Facepalm

Maybe it's too much school overheating my girly brain but... why not have a society where women and men can pursue what they want, be it family, education, career? I always thought that a sign of a civilised society is one where men and women have similar expectations of each other and work together to achieve these. Personally, I have no expectations of men. ;)

"Имеют. Знают. Это ты, брат, еще не знаешь"
2012 Dec 05 05:24
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Torkilsdottir (05-12-2012)
Guiri
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Post: #62
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 05 01:09)Phlegethon Wrote:  
(2012 Dec 04 21:21)Guiri Wrote:  Phlegethon, I've grown familiar enough with your posts over the last 6 years to know that this is your opinion of ALL women, not just Spaniards and myself. Yes, we all know by now how much you despise women. As do most closet homosexuals.

You're just a lame one trick pony. Your pathetic attempts at kitchen psychology are getting kinda old by now.

It is women enforcing their way into all-male environments at any costs by infiltrating legislation, administration and the executive and blocking the courts with frivolous lawsuits - not the other way around. Once the last male habitat is poisoned by them this whole thing will backfire in a very nasty way. There are limits by nature and where laws get abused to tear them down nature will find another way to put them back up with force.

So what's your point? You think that crying and playing the victim is going to help your cause?

I was never arguing whether or not sexism exists. And I've always been an advocate of traditional roles for men and women.


Susi Wrote:It's no longer viable to have a one-salary household.
The changes in mass expectations and social pressures regarding lifestyle is what makes it no longer viable. The way people live today would have NEVER been sustainable by one salary families in the past either, except among the very wealthy.


Susi Wrote:The scenario you present is rare enough as it is,
It's nothing rare, but perhaps because of your age you haven't seen the way things most often end up panning out for women these days. It all starts out as fun in the early years, but I've seen time and time again women who end up suffering in the ways I've described after being promised in our societies, so permeated by feminist doctrine, of a wonderful life abound with satisfaction, self-realisation and contentment if they only reject traditional roles, only to find themselves having been duped... ending up lonely, bitter, unfulfilled and feeling ripped off.

Even my Aunt who was, up until the last ten years of her life, a feminist activist admitted to me that her generation of women were deceived and led astray by the promises and manipulations of feminism. Now she looks at women like my mother, who chose a more traditional path in her life, with envy instead of disdain and wishes she'd made similar choices. My Aunt's life is now, in her 60's, empty and full of regret.... like so many other women she knows.

But hindsight is a beautiful thing.


Susi Wrote:And isn't it the husband who is the real fuck up in your scenario, sitting around and doing nothing? There are equally shitty scenarios with men in the starring role but I don't hear them being bandied about

Both men and women lose out these days, it's true, but I think it's women who are getting the shorter straw.

Why would I have painted the scenario as it is for men? I was adressing what had been said about women not knowing what is expected of them in modern times.

Susi Wrote:Because girls are stupid and never question anything. We need to be taught by those above us to act in a proper way.
I was talking about "girls" here, Susi. Children. You seem to think that I was referring to women of your age. By the time girls reach the age of about 12 they're already well past their formative years. Will you argue now that children don't need to be taught appropriate and healthy behavioural patterns by their caregivers?


Susi Wrote:I always thought that a sign of a civilised society is one where men and women have similar expectations of each other and work together to achieve these.

Civilisation has always been marked by differing expectations of men and women and their roles within. The genders working together to achieve balanced, healthy, functional families, communities and nations is a must. But feminism has been entriely detrimental to this.


Susi Wrote:Personally, I have no expectations of men.
You should. If you did, you wouldn't have to be constantly short-changing yourself when it comes to romance. (Ie, paying for dates because otherwise the men you choose to go out with will expect sex from you.)
2012 Dec 05 11:22
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Osweo
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Post: #63
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 05 05:24)Susi Wrote:  
Quote:no matter how much social pressure and engineering is involved, members of a certain gender will by default of biological determinism be inclined towards a behavior and role in society typical for their (biological) gender.
I think though, we should consider whether these behaviours are actually doing us any good... I don't really believe in this kind of philosophy, that biology is destiny. It seems far too simplistic... things are complicated.

Live in cloud cuckoo land, if you must, but don't expect anyone to take you seriously, if you believe we can get away with thumbing our nose at tens of millions of years of evolutionary pressure. dunno
Quote:If my role of 'wife' was biologically determined, then is it total rebellion that I'm not particularly interested in it, except in my most fantastical daydreams?
Youth.

Quote:The subtext I understand: "I don't like where this is going so I want women to stick by the roles that they've been given damn it, by staying in the home and in the kitchen rather than having the freedom to do whatever they want, be it stay at home/in the kitchen or go out and pursue knowledge etc."

Let me know if I have it wrong.
You have it wrong. Why are you dressing your opponents up in such petty caricatures?
Quote:[Image: tumblr_lt0vpxYpFM1qzv8a1o1_1280.png]
This phenomenon is due to too many men barely having seen what women actually look like. I agree that there's a problem here, and it's one of the upbringing or imprinting of men. I could refer to my old favourite topic of women shaving, for another example. Big Grin Too many boys are growing up with too many images in their memory of women who are about as hirsute as a Barbie doll, and this is a terrible thing that they need to get over.

Quote: I used to be less cynical, then an ex (when he was my boyfriend) told me that I need to lose weight so that he can love me.
You have a habit of selecting arseholes. sad You're young enough for this to still be a useful learning process, but do try to get to the bottom of it before it gets too much of a habit!

Quote:Whatevs.
[Image: Deal_70396e_1252526.gif]
Link didn't work for me. cry
Quote:(Hilarious) Vignettes about being 'taken out' by men:
1. ...
Arseholes, again... Facepalm

Quote:This is by no means how all men behave but I'm incredibly leery of being 'taken out' by a man, unless we're splitting the bill or it's not terribly expensive. I don't like having anyone pay for me because they often assume that then I'll sleep with them or at least indulge them in some sort of ... activity. Otherwise they offer to take me out, say they will pay, and then turn it on its head to 'show me' (e.g. "i don't like this gender norm and will make you suffer because of it").

So yeah. I take people out, and I split the cost of things, but I don't like to be 'taken out' because of the shit that surrounds it.
Seriously, turn off that arsehole-magnet! I refuse to believe that Canadian men are so TOTALLY arseholeish across the board.
Quote: Maybe I just like mutual respect and shit and want things to work out like I'm a human being rather than an object to seduce?
Again, simply the arsehole-attracting problem has distorted your perceptions. dunno

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2012 Dec 05 15:25
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Torkilsdottir
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Post: #64
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 05 15:25)Osweo Wrote:  Seriously, turn off that arsehole-magnet! I refuse to believe that Canadian men are so TOTALLY arseholeish across the board.

They are. And North American men in general.

In fact, after talking to some people from Eastern Europe, who would be "chauvanist" by Western standards, I think their version of "chauvanism" is more acceptable than Western liberalized chauvanism. At least they respect women, while Western men insult women, call them ugly, harass them, try to silence them, etc.

2012 Dec 05 16:01
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Post: #65
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 05 16:01)Torkilsdottir Wrote:  
(2012 Dec 05 15:25)Osweo Wrote:  Seriously, turn off that arsehole-magnet! I refuse to believe that Canadian men are so TOTALLY arseholeish across the board.

They are. And North American men in general.

I have to say, I agree with this.
2012 Dec 05 16:12
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Torkilsdottir
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RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
French-Canadian men are not as bad (yeah, sorry, Anglo bashing again, and I hope y'all know I only mean North Americans in that context) but, you know, they have hair everywhere on their bodies but on their heads and have this compulsion to wear Speedos, a garment that no man should wear.

2012 Dec 05 16:16
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Post: #67
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
North America is of course the epicentre of all the worst anticultural traits that have grown from materialist consumerism, so I can see that it probably is worse over there. I'm sorry to hear this. But surely there are men who have been less corrupted!? And there are new European immigrants coming over all the time!

By the way, what's it like in Australia in this respect, Guiri? Much different to England?

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2012 Dec 05 16:23
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Post: #68
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 05 15:25)Osweo Wrote:  Seriously, turn off that arsehole-magnet! I refuse to believe that Canadian men are so TOTALLY arseholeish across the board.

Nationalities in the vignettes:
1. Russian
2. Dutch
3. Polish
4. Estonian

Yeah, it's totally a Canadian problem. Rolleyes

I haven't been treated poorly across the board, truly, but there's always been small moments like this. Even the 'nice' ones have their shitty moments...

Quote: Again, simply the arsehole-attracting problem has distorted your perceptions. dunno

Because it's my fault and there's something wrong with me and my selection process, not something wrong with the way in which many men are acting towards me and my peers Rolleyes.

"Имеют. Знают. Это ты, брат, еще не знаешь"
2012 Dec 05 16:27
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Post: #69
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
Women treat me unfairly boohoo.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Dec 05 16:38
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Post: #70
RE: Sweden's insane anti-discrimination laws have created a generation of lost women
(2012 Dec 05 16:27)Susi Wrote:  Nationalities in the vignettes:
1. Russian
2. Dutch
3. Polish
4. Estonian

Looks like a variation of jungle fever to me.

Now let's talk about North American females, as they aren't any better ( or - more likely - even worse).


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2012 Dec 05 17:02
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