Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
Author Message
Heimdallr
Offline
Member



Norge

Posts: 230
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 54
Post: #1
Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
Quote:Readers of this blog will recall an earlier outburst by the minister of education in the South African province of Kwa-Zulu Natal, blaming the 1960s White South African Prime Minister Dr. H.F. Verwoerd for ‘making maths and science difficult.’

Well, it seems like evil old Dr. Verwoerd has struck again. According to an article in the Sowetan newspaper (which is South Africa’s largest circulation black paper), the “average performance” in grade nine mathematics in that country is 13 percent (!)

[Image: sowetan1.jpg]

In somewhat of an understatement, Basic Education Minister Angie Motshekga told a press conference which released the annual national assessment (ANA) results that the “maths performance of Grade Nine pupils” was “cause for concern.”

“In Grade Nine mathematics, the average performance is 13 percent. Provincial performance ranges between 9% and 17 percent,” she said.

Motshekga said the department was concerned that few pupils pursued maths and science in the Further Education and Training phase, and that even those who had the potential to take these subjects did not.

“Among many other reasons, including the availability of teachers, is the fear of failing as they witness others not making the grade.”

At least she did not, like her colleague in Kwa-Zulu Natal, try to blame a white man who lived 50 years ago for the academic disaster.

* Research by J. Philippe Rushton (University of Western Ontario, London, Ontario, Canada), Peter Fridjhon and Mervyn Skuy (University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, South Africa), released in a paper titled Performance on Raven’s Advanced ProgressiveMatrices by African, East Indian, and White engineering students in SouthAfrica in 2002, found the following:
Quote:At the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg, Rushton, Skuy, and colleagues gave Raven’s Standard Progressive Matrices in three separate studies under optimal testing conditions. Rushton and Skuy (2000) found 173 first-year psychology students averaged an IQ equivalent of 84. Skuy et al. (2002) tested another 70 psychology students who averaged an IQ equivalent of 83.

After receiving training on how to solve Matrices-type items, their mean scores rose to an IQ equivalent of 96. Rushton, Skuy, and Fridjhon (2002) gave 198 African first-year engineering students the Standard Raven’s and found they averaged an IQ of 97. (In contrast, the White university students in these three studies had IQs from 105 to 111; East Indian students had intermediate IQs, from 102 to 106.)

Source
2013 Jan 01 21:28
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Zephyr
Away
Bots, bots everywhere.
Supervision



Portugal

Posts: 1.628
Joined: Feb 2012
Reputation: 534
Post: #2
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
No offence, Heimdallr, but how relevant is this to Europe?

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

Jeff Hanneman 1964-2013
João Ribas 1965-2014
Lemmy Kilmister 1945-2015
2013 Jan 02 00:01
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 2 users Like Zephyr's post:
Aramis (02-01-2013), Susi (06-01-2013)
Phlegethon
Offline
Factionist of the forlorn



Deutschland

Posts: 5.282
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #3
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
Just look at the Greeks. They invented mathematics and still cannot figure out basic accounting. ;)


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2013 Jan 02 00:52
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 2 users Like Phlegethon's post:
Dussander (02-01-2013), Heimdallr (02-01-2013)
Heimdallr
Offline
Member



Norge

Posts: 230
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 54
Post: #4
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
(2013 Jan 02 00:01)Zephyr Wrote:  No offence, Heimdallr, but how relevant is this to Europe?
You will have your answer in due course, Zephyr

Europe will discover what America has known for quite some time about the Africans (the subject of this article).

Besides, the post was made in: Forum Europa / Current events / World ... was it not?
2013 Jan 02 12:07
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Heimdallr's post:
Kernunnos (02-01-2013)
Aramis
Offline
Angloholic



Hrvatska

Posts: 873
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 403
Post: #5
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
All races, ethnicities and creeds who score higher in IQ test, and show on avarage a better performance in school tests, are to be allowed to freely imigrate into Europe and flood us with their alien culture.
Everyone else might get lucky in the next generation.

...

I understand this fixation over blacks, their IQ scores and what not, from a colonial's perspective. But what I still fail to grasp is the importance of such results for native Europeans.
Entrance to African hordes should not be denied for differences in skin color, or a possible lower mental capability, but for the very simple fact that they, as a group in general, are misfits to our societies.
We who cherish and honour our ancestors and their culture, have to condemn and prevent any attempt to expose and flood it with forgein elements, no matter who the invader might be.

Yet, as long as we make use of such superiority-inferiority rethorics, instead of pushin gour heritage to a central focus, european nationalist groups are to be reduced by society to white pride movements and thus predestined to fail, as the last decades have undoubtly taught us.


And Heimdallr, I'm not neccecarily putting you in any sort of context here. Simply sharing my point of view, as it seems to be a fitting topic for it. Welcome to the forum, in any case. Smile
2013 Jan 02 17:36
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 7 users Like Aramis's post:
Aemma (02-01-2013), Dussander (02-01-2013), Mustapaita (02-01-2013), Osweo (02-01-2013), Susi (06-01-2013), Torkilsdottir (03-01-2013), Zephyr (02-01-2013)
Heimdallr
Offline
Member



Norge

Posts: 230
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 54
Post: #6
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
(2013 Jan 02 17:36)Aramis Wrote:  All races, ethnicities and creeds who score higher in IQ test, and show on avarage a better performance in school tests, are to be allowed to freely imigrate into Europe and flood us with their alien culture... Everyone else might get lucky in the next generation.
What you state is the opposite of what is true though. Alien cultures are allowed to freely immigrate REGARDLESS of any lack of demonstrated aptitude to fully assimilate into an advanced Western society.

(2013 Jan 02 17:36)Aramis Wrote:  I understand this fixation over blacks, their IQ scores and what not, from a colonial's perspective. But what I still fail to grasp is the importance of such results for native Europeans.
"Fail to grasp", indeed. The inability of some ethnic groups to fully assimilate into an advanced Western culture is precisely because of a lack of mental aptitude, and that lack of mental aptitude, as shown by the article I posted, is apparent even in their own land.

(2013 Jan 02 17:36)Aramis Wrote:  Entrance to African hordes should not be denied for differences in skin color, or a possible lower mental capability, but for the very simple fact that they, as a group in general, are misfits to our societies.
They are "misfits" precisely because of lower mental capability. For example, law enforcement agencies have known for decades that there is a strong correlation between diminished mental capability and the commission of crimes.

(2013 Jan 02 17:36)Aramis Wrote:  We who cherish and honour our ancestors and their culture, have to condemn and prevent any attempt to expose and flood it with forgein elements, no matter who the invader might be.
On this point, we agree.

(2013 Jan 02 17:36)Aramis Wrote:  Yet, as long as we make use of such superiority-inferiority rethorics, instead of pushin gour heritage to a central focus, european nationalist groups are to be reduced by society to white pride movements and thus predestined to fail, as the last decades have undoubtly taught us.
Let's not be naive. ANY attempt to protect our culture will be labeled "RACISM" by the globalists, no matter how diplomatically and discretely it is attempted. Multiculturalism is being promoted by those who desire a 'one-world-one-government', borderless, corporate-controlled world whereby the masters can exploit ALL of Earth's natural resources and control all the planet's wealth; ANY nationalist stirrings will be dealt with harshly as they are in conflict with this objective.

(2013 Jan 02 17:36)Aramis Wrote:  And Heimdallr, I'm not neccecarily putting you in any sort of context here. Simply sharing my point of view, as it seems to be a fitting topic for it. Welcome to the forum, in any case.
Thank you for your welcome, Aramis.

Several years ago, Australia withdrew from a UN agreement whereby african 'refugees' would be resettled in their land by granting them 'asylum'. The Australian government cited the significant difficulty the african immigrants encountered assimilating into their culture as the reason for their withdrawl from the agreement.

Here are few exerts from the news article that was posted on Yahoo (since expired) about the Batus (Somalians) recently that were resettled in the USA... It gives some insight, many here may be unaware of, WHY the african have such difficluty assimilating.

Quote:The U.S. State Department in 1999 agreed to give political asylum to more than 13,000 Bantus, making them the largest single group of African refugees ever admitted to the USA (at that time).

• Resettlement counselors who work with Bantus say many had never flushed a toilet, flicked a light switch, watched a TV, talked on a telephone, cooked on a stove, ridden in a car, held a pen, used a fork, seen a two-story building or written or read their own language.

• In Kenya, some Bantus had gotten stuck in a room at an orientation session because they didn't know how to turn the doorknob. Others asked whether they had to go with their luggage as it passed through the airport X-ray machine.

• More than 200 Bantus ended up in homeless shelters the following year in Columbus, Ohio, USA. They'd moved to the city, which has a large Somali population, from the communities where they were originally settled, looking for work.

• The 100 Bantu families who were resettled in Pinellas County, Florida, USA, in 2004, found jobs and housing so scarce that within a year all had moved elsewhere.

"We had no idea how hard it would be, even though we spent a year preparing for their arrival," says Marmor, the Springfield agency director. "We didn't realize there would be people with no knowledge of Western civilization."

Van Lehman, a Portland (Oregon) State University professor involved in a national effort to study and assist the Somali Bantu, says almost all the men who can work do, usually in low-wage posts such as janitor, warehouse worker and orderly. Most of the men have learned some English. Many have bought cars and gotten driver's licenses.

• Most of the women are isolated at home without a car and with several small children. Their only exposure to English is a volunteer tutor for a few hours once a week.

"But at least we had them prepared for Halloween," says Robert Marmor, director of Jewish Family Services of Western Massachusetts, which helped resettle 250 Bantus.

The 13,000+ Bantus refugees from Somalia were resettled in a number of waves (or stages) of about 3,000 - 4,000 each... The 23,000 Burundi refugees from Tanzania and the 60,000 Bhutanese will also be resettled by the same methodology...

Apparently all of this was in accordance with UN agreements by member nations to help resettle 'refugees' by granting them 'asylum'... Other predominantly White nations nations like Norway, New Zealand and Australia were, at that time following suit, but in much smaller numbers...

The article I posted demonstrates that the africans' inability to assimilate into advanced cultures is not the fault of the educational system of the host nation, they have difficulty schooling in their own land. Do you think it's much different with the Muslims that are flooding Europe?

Successful education is preparation for successful assimilation into any advanced Western culture. Those ethnic group who have demonstrated they have significant difficulties assimilating into the host nation's culture should not be welcome.
.
.
.
2013 Jan 03 00:15
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Aramis
Offline
Angloholic



Hrvatska

Posts: 873
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 403
Post: #7
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
(2013 Jan 03 00:15)Heimdallr Wrote:  What you state is the opposite of what is true though. Alien cultures are allowed to freely immigrate REGARDLESS of any lack of demonstrated aptitude to fully assimilate into an advanced Western society.

I was (obviously?) being sarcastic there. ;)

Quote:"Fail to grasp", indeed. The inability of some ethnic groups to fully assimilate into an advanced Western culture is precisely because of a lack of mental aptitude, and that lack of mental aptitude, as shown by the article I posted, is apparent even in their own land.

They are "misfits" precisely because of lower mental capability. For example, law enforcement agencies have known for decades that there is a strong correlation between diminished mental capability and the commission of crimes.


Let's not be naive. ANY attempt to protect our culture will be labeled "RACISM" by the globalists, no matter how diplomatically and discretely it is attempted. Multiculturalism is being promoted by those who desire a 'one-world-one-government', borderless, corporate-controlled world whereby the masters can exploit ALL of Earth's natural resources and control all the planet's wealth; ANY nationalist stirrings will be dealt with harshly as they are in conflict with this objective.


I believe my standpoint was made already clear. But for the sake of it, here:

First of, you didn't truly respond to my reasoning and arguments, but instead persisted on the former idea of Africans not being suitable for integration because of their "inferior intellect". And that's it. They are different in intellect, therefore not able to integrate, therefore must not be allowed in Europe.

All of these stataments are besides my point. I argued that differences in mental capacity should not be used as argument to induce a limit to immigrant numbers from Africa. Instead, most simply, limitations should exist beacuse Africans are not Europeans. Period.
Take the example of Turkey. Turks and south-east Europeans score with similar IQ's, Turks possess a educational system of higher quality than we do, and I believe their students even perform better in test, on average. Then, let's not leave aside certain cultural similarities.

Yet, none of this is argument enough to open our doors for Turkish mass imigration. Or even to German, for that matter. Heck, no Croatian desires to experience mass influx of Hungarians to Croatia, even though these aformentioned ethnic groups virtually share almost the same ancestry and culture.
All of them, no matter how similar, will eventually fail to assimilate en masse, if shipped in huge quantites to a forgein land.

Why do we need this useless inferiority argument in the first place then? It's time for a new, more pragmatic approach. One defined by an appreciation for mankind's diversity of heritage, combined with common sense, and knowledge that mass immigration is doing no group justice nor good, that human mobility has it's limits, which are just being broken by power hungry fatcats, justifying their greed with frivolous rhetorics of "progress" and "enlightment".

No need to bring those lowlife skinheads or WN nutzies into the game. Their time has come to an end.

If European nationalism wants to become effective again, it can't affored to associate itself all over again with it's darker times. I don't see much of an alternative there. Either change the approach, or save time and energy, and directly surrender to the Globalists & Co.

Quote:Successful education is preparation for successful assimilation into any advanced Western culture. Those ethnic group who have demonstrated they have significant difficulties assimilating into the host nation's culture should not be welcome.

I disagree. Like suggested above, I believe no group should be allowed to massively immigrate into the living space of another. No matter what differences may exist, in both quality and quantity. Even small ones may represent the cause of future problems.
Immigraton is particualry dangerous if conducted by force, lacking the approval of natives. This includes Europe's current scenario, where natives are being deprieved of basic data and info, in regards to the effects of immigration.

But, particular individuals who demonstrate the abbilty and willingness to assimilate, should be allowed to, under certain conditions as long as it doesn't jeopardise the host. Africans included. Why not.


Quote:Thank you for your welcome, Aramis.

You are welcome. Keep posting.
2013 Jan 03 21:47
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 2 users Like Aramis's post:
Osweo (03-01-2013), Temnozor (05-01-2013)
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.841
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 885
Post: #8
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
Hear hear, Aramis!

Heimy, you can't deny that Aramis's approach simply sounds FAIRER and lacking in any mean spiritedness whatsoever. What decent person can argue against it, unless they have attachments to nasty schemes of their own to defend at whatever the cost?

As for 'intelligence'... too many immigrants in countries I've lived in appear to have MORE common sense, guile, commitment to pursuing their self-interest, and political acumen than the natives! Stuff performance in algebra or abstract nonsensical IQ tests where you play with shapes and sequences! Good SENSE is something far more valuable, and our present political and cultural circumstances foster its extinction even faster than the extinction of our biological stock. none

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Jan 03 22:05
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 3 users Like Osweo's post:
Aramis (03-01-2013), Dussander (03-01-2013), Susi (06-01-2013)
Heimdallr
Offline
Member



Norge

Posts: 230
Joined: Dec 2012
Reputation: 54
Post: #9
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
(2013 Jan 03 00:15)Heimdallr Wrote:  What you state is the opposite of what is true though. Alien cultures are allowed to freely immigrate REGARDLESS of any lack of demonstrated aptitude to fully assimilate into an advanced Western society.
(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  I was (obviously?) being sarcastic there.
Oh, then you acknowledge your attempt at humor was not received as such, created misunderstanding, and consequently, detracted from the effectiveness of your response.

(2013 Jan 03 00:15)Heimdallr Wrote:  "Fail to grasp", indeed. The inability of some ethnic groups to fully assimilate into an advanced Western culture is precisely because of a lack of mental aptitude, and that lack of mental aptitude, as shown by the article I posted, is apparent even in their own land.

They are "misfits" precisely because of lower mental capability. For example, law enforcement agencies have known for decades that there is a strong correlation between diminished mental capability and the commission of crimes.

Let's not be naive. ANY attempt to protect our culture will be labeled "RACISM" by the globalists, no matter how diplomatically and discretely it is attempted. Multiculturalism is being promoted by those who desire a 'one-world-one-government', borderless, corporate-controlled world whereby the masters can exploit ALL of Earth's natural resources and control all the planet's wealth; ANY nationalist stirrings will be dealt with harshly as they are in conflict with this objective.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  I believe my standpoint was made already clear...
Clear in YOUR mind, perhaps, but not in mine. Your commentary did NOT have the soundness of clarity, Aramis.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  But for the sake of it, here:
By all means, try again.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  First of, you didn't truly respond to my reasoning and arguments...
But I saw no sound reasoning, only arguments.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ..but instead persisted on the former idea of Africans not being suitable for integration because of their "inferior intellect". And that's it. They are different in intellect, therefore not able to integrate, therefore must not be allowed in Europe.
I made the point of the strong correlation between low IQ and the inclination or predisposition toward crime, did I not? ... Are you now saying that such an inclination is acceptable?

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...All of these stataments are besides my point. I argued that differences in mental capacity should not be used as argument to induce a limit to immigrant numbers from Africa.
But, if you acknowledge the FACT that low IQ and the commission of crimes are strongly correlated, yours is a hollow argument.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...Instead, most simply, limitations should exist beacuse Africans are not Europeans. Period.
Even though I agree with you, that argument will never stand with the globalists though, Aramis.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...Take the example of Turkey. Turks and south-east Europeans score with similar IQ's, Turks possess a educational system of higher quality than we do, and I believe their students even perform better in test, on average. Then, let's not leave aside certain cultural similarities.
Would you mind very much if I didn't accept your word as FACT on that matter, Aramis? ... Cite a source that defends your statement please (especialy that in boldface).

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...Yet, none of this is argument enough to open our doors for Turkish mass imigration. Or even to German, for that matter. Heck, no Croatian desires to experience mass influx of Hungarians to Croatia, even though these aformentioned ethnic groups virtually share almost the same ancestry and culture.
Yes, even without you citing a source to defend that statement, I could accept it as factual. Nations have strong nationalist tendencies; THAT is the reality, seemingly woven into the fabric of our universe.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...All of them, no matter how similar, will eventually fail to assimilate en masse, if shipped in huge quantites to a forgein land.
Perhaps that is because human nature is to take the course of less resistance, and if peoples don't have to assimilate into another culture, they will not.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...Why do we need this useless inferiority argument in the first place then?
Because we desire life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness... One can hardly pursue happiness if they are not safe in their own home land.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...It's time for a new, more pragmatic approach. One defined by an appreciation for mankind's diversity of heritage, combined with common sense, and knowledge that mass immigration is doing no group justice nor good, that human mobility has it's limits, which are just being broken by power hungry fatcats, justifying their greed with frivolous rhetorics of "progress" and "enlightment".
A pragmatic approach would dictate that everyone recognize the universal premise, i.e. starting point of reasoning: "Birds of a feather flock together", would it not? ... So, how do you intend to cause the globalists to accept that axiom, Aramis?

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...No need to bring those lowlife skinheads or WN nutzies into the game. Their time has come to an end.
I suspect that if the truth be known, CHANGE will be brought about by the nation's people making NOISE, not seeking out another avenue of diplomacy. The globalists have no intention of listening to reason; what motivates them is GREED.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...If European nationalism wants to become effective again, it can't affored to associate itself all over again with it's darker times. I don't see much of an alternative there. Either change the approach, or save time and energy, and directly surrender to the Globalists & Co.
It would be a mistake to believe that the globalists are interested in anything other than their own best interests. They will not be deterred from their goals unless they are forced to relinquish their ambitions by a people who hold family and nation dearest above all else.

(2013 Jan 03 00:15)Heimdallr Wrote:  Successful education is preparation for successful assimilation into any advanced Western culture. Those ethnic group who have demonstrated they have significant difficulties assimilating into the host nation's culture should not be welcome.
(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...I disagree. Like suggested above, I believe no group should be allowed to massively immigrate into the living space of another. No matter what differences may exist, in both quality and quantity. Even small ones may represent the cause of future problems.
But they ARE being allowed to do just that!... What reasons can you petition your government with to NOT allow this to continue?... The strong correlation between CRIME and low IQ perhaps?

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...Immigraton is particualry dangerous if conducted by force, lacking the approval of natives. This includes Europe's current scenario, where natives are being deprieved of basic data and info, in regards to the effects of immigration.
I agree. The people's permission was never sought to begin with because it was known it would not be given.

(2013 Jan 03 21:47)Aramis Wrote:  ...But, particular individuals who demonstrate the abbilty and willingness to assimilate, should be allowed to, under certain conditions as long as it doesn't jeopardise the host. Africans included. Why not.
WHO decides WHICH particular indiviuals meets that criteria though, Aramis? ... And do you REALLY believe that the africans with "no knowledge of Western civilization" can successfully assimilate under, as you say, "certain conditions as long as it doesn't jeopardize the host", even if they express a willingness to try?

For example, what does the current crime statistics in Norway, where rape and other violent crimes are attributed almost solely to african and muslim immigrants, say about "not jeopardizing the host".

The well-meaning Norwegians have brought a PLAGUE of violent crime upon themselves (especially their women) by the very naivete reflected in your commentary.

There is a direct correlation between low IQ and the proclivity toward CRIME... The inhabitants of advanced Western nations are not benefited by additional CRIME being introduced into their nations; immigration is responsible for just that, and this FACT is the best argument against it.
2013 Jan 04 00:33
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.841
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 885
Post: #10
RE: Black high school students in South Africa performing poorly
Talk of IQ, likelihood of assimilation, criminal proclivities... it all just opens endless debates and solves NOTHING. Aramis's position is to step OVER this quicksand of argument, to more important notions of nations' right to exist as they are, with far more fundamental truths behind them than things you focus on that have been argued over for decades to no avail.

We don't want to convince the globalists. They know what they want, and are busy building it. Many of the more intelligent ones are FULLY aware of the biological data you cite, but carry on regardless. We just need to nudge a significant enough part of our populace to dare speak out for their right to a country of their own and their distaste for being made lab rats in horrific social engineering experiments. Many agree with us in their hearts of hearts, but are just brow-beaten by concocted peer-pressure into shutting up and going along with it all. As the results of it all become more and more apparent every day, more people will speak out.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Jan 04 00:47
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 3 users Like Osweo's post:
Aramis (06-01-2013), Susi (06-01-2013), Temnozor (05-01-2013)


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)