The Romance Languages - some trees and maps
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Osweo
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RE: The Romance Languages - some trees and maps
(2016 May 22 23:51)Flavius Wrote:  The idea that a number of illiterate sheepherders defeated Slavs, Avars and Magyars so powerfully that they now dominate a swath of land from the Danube to the Nistru? That's just equally ridiculous.
Okay.... illiterate - not really an issue here. You think literacy was important in establishing the Rumanian nation?! As you yourself wrote, they were using Old Church Slavonic most of the time anyway!

Slavs - the key here is that the relevant Slavonic groups had failed to establish a decent political structure. We see this south of the river too, where the Slavs were taken over by Bulgars, and also to some extent in other Slavonic polities, where there are strong indications that an Iranic steppe nomad element formed the nucleus of the elite.

Avars - based off in Pannonia, not too fussed about what happens in Wallachia, and perhaps even happy about it, if it meant more tribute to collect. Charlemagne would soon sort them out, anyway.

Magyars - weren't even there yet.

Shepherds... - this isn't something to mock. It's a very successful model for expansion. Look at the Mongols, the Aryans, the original PIEans. If you can move your wealth around with you and eat it when you need to, and have it reproduce itself, without being tied down too much to calendars and soil, you're onto a winner, if the other circumstances are conducive, and it seems they were in Dacia.

Quote: 1. There is zero evidence of a great Latin migration wave from the Balkans to Romania in comparison to the Germanic and Slavic migrations.
There is very little evidence of MANY things in the history of the continent in the early middle ages. Witness the endless arguments over the Anglo-Saxons.
Quote: 2. Because their presence was not continually documented doesn't mean they weren't always there, they simply got forgotten as a result of the more-seismic event of the barbarian invasions. Vulgar Latin that evolved into Romanian continued to be spoken in the area.

This, of course is possible, but I find it unlikely. The situation immediately around the 250 withdrawal is key to me. How much romanitas remained, and why and how? I can't come up with a model that works, for me.
Quote: 3. Take Albanians, for instance, only began to appear in history rather late but it doesn't mean they weren't always there.
You're arguing against your own point (1), here!
Quote: 4. A combination of factors including the lack of documentation concerning a Latin migration wave, the military power required to overcome the Slavs, Magyars, and other who had set up camp in Romania, the developed Romanian language which has essentially remained the same since the 15th century, easily disprove the Vlachs migrated into Romania and kicked out everybody theory.
No massive military power was required. Just mobility, and the willingness to seize an opportunity and occupy a vacant niche. It's more like the rapefugees than an armed conquest! What are you trying to say about the nature of the Rumanian language? I don't follow.

Quote:5. The organization required to control an area as large as Romania required a preexisting infrastructure, a preexisting population that knew the way around, the fact that the Latin language in Eastern Europe was on the retreat from 6th century and onwards, meant there was no way that sheepherders could have just moved in unless they had the organization.
You're not thinking diachronically. There's no need to talk about the vast expanse of modern Rumania in this phase. We just need to control the foothills of the Carpathians. And it could have been done nice and slowly, just a little further along the mountain range each generation.
Quote: I think you're forgotten Vulgar Latin which was spoken by the masses including the people in Romania. The formal Latin language was hardly spoken by many people besides the educated class and is why we have the French language, the Spanish language and so forth…
I don't even know why you're talking about this. I usually say "Romance" anyway. Classical Latin was just a book language at this point. I speak the local form of Vulgar Latin everyday, remember!
Quote:That doesn't prove anything, the loanwords exist because Slavs had an influence on their culture as a result of the Slavic migrations that brought them south of the Nistru.
As ever, it's the nature of the loanwoards that's important. Slavs growing plants, and Vlachs tending animals.
Quote: The Slavs hardly have any documented history before the migrations but it doesn't mean they arrived from Mars.
Just as the movement of Vlachs northwards escapes much historical notice.

Quote: When the Slavic migrants arrived, they brought with them a lot of the ruling class Slavs, and is why Romanian has lots of Slavic words but like the Turkic Bulgars who were assimilated by Slavs, they simply were assimilated by the more numerous Latin population…
Nobles don't teach peasants what to call tools that they use every day. They don't, as a rule, bother them with new terminology for ploughing fields. They let them get on with it, and cream off the profits.

The most demonstrative word here is brăzda - "furrow" - those lines in the earth you get after ploughing. The Bulgarian word is identical, as is the Slovak. Russian has borozda. (the b-r are the same as the f-r in the English, or German Furche and Danish fure). In England, we use all this French vocab, but our furrows remain as they always did, to show our kinship with our Germanic cousins. The other Romance peoples say solco, surco, sillon. I just can't imagine romanised Dacians staying farming the land and dropping this term.

Quote: The Slavic influence is way overemphasized.
They say "da". Spend much time around them, and it's the first thing you notice. Look a little deeper, and they say iubi for love, and priaten for friend. (lyubiti and priyatel in Slavonic)
Quote:The Macedonians and Bulgarians are hardly genetically Slavic/Eastern European, very distant from Russians and Ukrainians and Romanians are in the same boat.
"Slav" means different things in different times and places. Slavs in the Balkans are slavonicised Thracians and Illyrians, in large part. Slavs in Rumania were partly slavonicised Dacians, by the time they met the Vlachs.
Quote: The Romanians are Southeastern Europeans and closer to the Balkan populations as a consequence, but this brings me back to my original point - no documentation of a major Latin speaker migration into Romania. If it was sufficiently significant to overwhelm the Slavs, Magyars then it would have been documented.
It wouldn't need to have been so big. Look at London now - it's swamped, but much of the incomers arrived in dribs and drabs, not all at once. And Byzantine writers were concerned about the activities of sultans, kings and khans, not independent stockbreeders. This was less of an invasion, and more of a business venture, that's how I picture it to myself. You're a Latin speaking rancher, sick of Bulgar and Serb zhupans ordering you about, and you hear of the near-empty pastures just over the river, just waiting to be brought into use. Down in the valleys, there are Slavs living in disparate little communes, but all the better - a market for milk and leather, and a source of eggs and vegetables. Play your cards right and you can start aping the old zhupans who used to piss you off back home, heck, why not even adopt their titles!

How well do you speak your parents' language? I've been looking at the map, to see the toponymy... I zoomed in on the area around Târgu Jiu, sufficiently far from the border to prevent more recent "seepage" from the Slavs to the south.... And the place-names are LAUGHABLY Slavonic! Targu itself is obviously from the Slavonic word for market or trade - torgovati. But there are little places called Krasna (beautiful), Prigoria (by the Hill), Rudina (mine), Pojogeni (a burnt area), Dumbraveni (place of oak trees)... it's FAR more Slavonic than I even expected! Pestera (cave), Bistrita (fast river), Targuviste (old market place), Barlogu (bear's den), Zmeuratu (snake-something), Dragoslavele (lolllll), Poiana (clearing), Tesila (narrow gorge)... It's fucking endless... And I don't even speak Russian VERY well. LOPATNITA! You couldn't make it up! "shovel digger", in Slavonic. This is all from an area VERY far from the Bulgarian border. There is no excuse... Dobrota (goodness, kindness), Bolatau (swamp), Stanesti (homestead), Camenca (stone)...

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 23 14:59
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Osweo
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RE: The Romance Languages - some trees and maps
(2016 May 22 23:57)Flavius Wrote:  Toponyms are meaningless. It only means they were there at one time. There are tons of Slavic toponyms in Albania because of the Bulgarian Empire but are Albanians Slavs? No.
Toponymy is a wonderful resource for those willing to make an effort to understand it. And yes, the Albanians have a lot of Slavonic ancestors, just as the Serbs and particularly Montenegrins have many Albanian ancestors. A greater awareness of these shared ancestries might actually be a good thing in terms of contemporary relations, even. This is something the Rumanians could likewise do better in.


(2016 May 23 05:38)Flavius Wrote:  Let's bring in some archaeological evidence that proves that Roman life continued even after the Roman Empire withdrew to the south of the Danube. This further counters Osweo's argument that all Romans left at the withdrawal when this was clearly not the case.
Life, of WHO??? Of thoroughly romanised people, or of those Dacians who'd knuckled under and strained under Roman tax gatherers for several generations? How much Latin do you really think they spoke? How resilient a population could such a leaderless mass of serfs prove in the face of wave after wave of barbarian migration?
Quote: a 5th century CE Dacian burial contained a Roman type brooch

a Constantinian styled Chi-Rho (symbolizing Jesus Chris) was found inscribed on a vessel.

a bronze dove — the symbol of the Holy Spirit — were randomly excavated from unknown contexts

Is that really the best the Dacophiles have been able to come up with in so many decades?! A bunch of Roman stuff, found not TOO far from the Empire. You find similar up in bloody Sweden, even.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 23 16:38
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Osweo
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RE: The Romance Languages - some trees and maps
This amused me, just now:

Quote: In the modern Icelandic language, the term Blokumannaland may refer to either Wallachia or Africa.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 27 18:16
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