Maps of Europe
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Osweo
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Post: #91
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Oct 06 18:50)Aptrgangr Wrote:  [Image: image213915galleryv9ips.jpg]

Does the fact that Lusatia (southern Brandenburg - eastern Saxony) is bleeding away people mean that the Sorbian language is in any better condition than the last few decades!? One would imagine that the last to go will be the most native types bound to the farmland there, and if German speakers wander away from the villages their farms surround, won't they end up being a higher proportion of the people there, and thus making their own speech more prominent than it has been for ages?

My foolish optimism awaits a gloomy back-to-reality answer...

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2012 Oct 26 01:00
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Unurautare
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Post: #92
RE: Maps of Europe
[Image: europeandmediterraneanr.gif]

[Image: attachment.php?attachmentid=19160&d=1160244053]

[Image: map_geothermie.jpg]
2012 Oct 26 18:48
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Post: #93
RE: Maps of Europe
Maximum extent of the Swabian Kingdom, after defeating the Alani:

[Image: Reino-Suevo_seculo-V.jpg]

Apparently, the turning point was a major battle near Aeminium (today Coimbra).

It would shrink in the following 100 years until the Visigoths finally took over the whole peninsula.

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

Jeff Hanneman 1964-2013
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Lemmy Kilmister 1945-2015
2012 Nov 01 20:03
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Phlegethon
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Post: #94
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Oct 26 01:00)Osweo Wrote:  Does the fact that Lusatia (southern Brandenburg - eastern Saxony) is bleeding away people mean that the Sorbian language is in any better condition than the last few decades!?

Exactly the opposite is true. The more money gets pumped into the Sorbian cultural work the less Sorbs actually speak Sorbian. Obersorbisch (Hornjoserbšćina) by around 15,000 and Niedersorbisch (Dolnoserbšćina) by around 7,000. Sorbs are also the fastest shrinking ethnic minority in western Europe it seems. Bad luck that their region is among the poorest in Germany, suffering from the devastation of brown coal mining, unemployment and deindustrialization.

The Domowina, which just celebrated its 100th birthday, shrank to a membership of around 7,300 out of a total of 45,000 to 60,000. That may have to do with the Sorbian officials eagerly cooperating first with the National Socialist and then with the communists while at the same time switching from being predominantly Protestant to being predominantly Catholic (with a constantly growing percentage of Sorbs claiming no religious affiliation). Sorbbs nowadays are probably the most assimilated ethnic minority in western Europe.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2012 Nov 01 20:38
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Post: #95
RE: Maps of Europe
Europa Polyglota

[Image: hensel_1741.jpg]

Beautiful creation by Gottfried Hensel, 1730.

http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/231-pra...dictionary

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

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2012 Nov 03 23:47
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Mustapaita
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Post: #96
RE: Maps of Europe
On the above map, the "Lapponic" is actually Finnish, btw.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Nov 04 04:23
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Post: #97
RE: Maps of Europe
[Image: Mapabelarusi.jpg]

Funny how the older ethnographers saw the boundaries of the White-Russians. Leaving out that bit in the southwest around Brest is curious, and the lunging out into Smolenschina and the north...

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2012 Nov 22 21:28
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Post: #98
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Nov 22 21:28)Osweo Wrote:  Funny how the older ethnographers saw the boundaries of the White-Russians. Leaving out that bit in the southwest around Brest is curious, and the lunging out into Smolenschina and the north...

Isn't this map from Lurkmore.to? Interested in Bulbosrach much? LOL

The dialects of the yellow area around Brest honestly speaking are closer to Ukrainian than to Belarusian.

What cut the Brest-Pinsk Polesia from the rest of Ukraine was the historical border, that existed between Poland and the GDL since 1569. And continued to exists as an administrative border in the Russian Empire after the partitions of the Rzecz Pospolita.

If I am not mistaken, Łatyszonek wrote somewhere that initially the Brest voivodeship (or Brest povet?) decided to join Poland with the rest of Ukrainian lands, but then deputies of the local Sojm changed their minds and decided to stay with the GDL.

Currently the population of the Brest-Pinsk Polesia doesn't have the Ukrainian identity or even strong local identity to speak of. Also it should be noted that that area is quite diverse linguistically, unlike the rest of Belarus (and Ukraine, I guess) and there are many interesting and peculiarly sounding dialects there.

As for Smolenschina... Smolensk shared a lot of its fate with Polotsk, and the both cities were located on the land of Crivitians. It wasn't within Moscow's sphere of influence all the time, and was Russified later than the rest of Russian lands were:

"Малая Россия, Лифляндия и Финляндия суть провинции, которые правятся конфирмованными им привилегиями: нарушить оные отрешением всех вдруг весьма непристойно было б, однако же называть их чужестранными и обходиться с ними на таковом же основании есть большее, нежели ошибка, а можно назвать с достоверностию глупостию. Сии провинции, также Смоленскую, надлежит легчайшими способами привести к тому, чтоб они обрусели и перестали глядеть как волки из лесу" (Catherine the Great). ;)

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

[Image: now.jpg]
2012 Nov 22 22:31
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Osweo (23-11-2012)
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Post: #99
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Nov 22 22:31)Whiteruthenian Wrote:  Isn't this map from Lurkmore.to? Interested in Bulbosrach much? LOL
Yep. Immensely! Big Grin
Quote: Currently the population of the Brest-Pinsk Polesia doesn't have the Ukrainian identity
Damn, they would have fit in very well with plenty of other parts of the Ukraine! oh lol!
Quote:quite diverse linguistically, unlike the rest of Belarus (and Ukraine, I guess) and there are many interesting and peculiarly sounding dialects there.
Curious. Any particular geographical reason for this? What's the terrain like?
Quote:the land of Crivitians.
Your anglicisations crack me up! Krivichi! Big Grin
Quote: It wasn't within Moscow's sphere of influence all the time, and was Russified later
*RErussified, or depolonicised, rather... thumbs up

Can you think of any examples of the peculiar speech of these Polesians?

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2012 Nov 23 00:16
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Post: #100
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Nov 23 00:16)Osweo Wrote:  Curious. Any particular geographical reason for this? What's the terrain like?

Marshes and woods, at leat that's how it used to be. It's Polesia after all..

(2012 Nov 23 00:16)Osweo Wrote:  
Quote:the land of Crivitians.
Your anglicisations crack me up! Krivichi! Big Grin

It's because I am so cool that I did the anglicisation through Latin: Frater Henricus Marschalcus… venit ad terram Crivitae, et civitatem illam, guae parva Nogardiadicitur cepit.
cool

(2012 Nov 23 00:16)Osweo Wrote:  *RErussified, or depolonicised, rather... thumbs up

So you say that the stories about the apocalyptic antagonism between Smolensk and Moscow since the times of mammoths and about the russification carried out by communists last Thursday aren't really true? Huh?

(2012 Nov 23 00:16)Osweo Wrote:  Can you think of any examples of the peculiar speech of these Polesians?

Ta-da: http://holos.at.ua/_ld/0/65_Klymczuk.pdf

The map from the article: http://img-minsk.fotki.yandex.ru/get/560...9b769_orig

Torokanśki hovirky are my favourite ones. Why to say, for example, "берег"? That's way too trendy. Say "баруг" instead! Here is a longer text:

Гато було давно, ша ек молодэх жинэлэ йіхэ батькэ з матиремэ. Був одэн хлопиц i схотів він жинэтися. Ала ж сам ни підить до дівкэ, траба кого за свата взетэ. Ну, кого взетэ? Питайіцца він свого рiдного детька: «Шо я вас хотів просэтэ, детьку, можэ б вита пушлэ б за мною в сватэ′?» -- «Я то пушов бэ, чому б ни пушов, -- кажить детько, -- ала тэ некі хто ёго знайіть якэй, с тобою оно сорому набирасься. Шоб гато тэ еґжа чоловік, шоб зайшов у хату да кэнув гочэма в одэн бік, да в другі бік, коб людэ сказалэ: «О, видно, шо хэтри хлопиц, всюдэ гленить, варт за такого дівку оддатэ». -- «От задав мині задачу детько, -- подумав хлопиц, -- кэнутэ то кэнутэ го­чэма, а да я тилько тих гочай набиру, шоб йiх кэдатэ?!» Ала приду­мав. У богатого сусіда чи то в пана було мнэго овац. І шо він надумавсь. Заліз у хлів, ек никого ни було, i повиколупував гочэ тим овичкам. Наклав повнэ кишанэ тих гочай. Заходить до детька. «Ну, -- кажить, -- детьку, вжа ходімо, я вжа буду так робэтэ, ек вита казалэ». I пушлэ вонэ. Заходять. Парши іда детько, за йім жинэх. Оно входять в хату, той жинэх виймайiть с кишанэ жманю гочай, да шпурлiть йiмэ в одэн бiк, виймайіть з другайі кишанэ жманю гочай, да шпурліть в другі бік. Тэйі людэ полякались. «Шо гато, -- думають, -- жинэх некэ мнесо кэдайітъ, чи то він дурнэй, чи то некэ черэ?» Сталэ на того свата кричетэ: «Ша гато тэ за дэво привів?!» -- «Ша гато тэ робиш?! -- накэнувся вжа сват па жиниха,-- якое тэ гато мнесо кэдайіш?» -- «А вита ж казалэ!» -- «Шо я казав?» -- «Вита казалэ, шо ек зайдимо в хату, то шоб я кэнув гочэма зразу в одэн бік, а потим у другі бiк». І він росказав про вса: да він тэйі гочэ взев. «Дурню тэ, дурню, -- гэдив ёго детько, -- чому тиба ни розлешчило на глаткі дорозэ, хай би ліпш зимне пирид намэ провалэлась, ек мо сюдэ йшлэ. I ни хотів я с тобою йтэ. I ек зариз будить людюм в гочэ гленутэ?! I всё чириз тиба. Я тобі казав, шоб тэ кэнув гочэма, гато шоб тэ подивэвся у одэн бік, у другі бік, шоб людэ бачилэ, што тэ розумни чоловік. А він от шчо наробэв! А ек мо зариз с па′ном рошчитайімось: тэ ж покалічив yci ёго овичкэ! Правду кажуть, шо ліпш з розумним згубэтэ, чим з дурнем найтэ, бо він дуринь!»

http://hovirky.livejournal.com/16833.html

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

[Image: now.jpg]
2012 Nov 23 15:30
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