Maps of Europe
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Mustapaita
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Post: #51
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 14:33)Osweo Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 09 14:11)Mustapaita Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 09 14:05)Osweo Wrote:  and Finland and everywhere... )

Russians are a small minority in Finland, numbering around 0.8% of the population.
Still there, though! ;) What regions are they mostly in, by the way? I mean the Old Believers, not recent migrants.

Old Believers? I don't think we have too many of them. They exist in Estonia, however.

If you mean Russians who arrived before the collapse of the USSR, I guess most of them live in Helsinki and other larger population centres. There was very little Russian immigration to Finland during the Russian period. During the revolutionary turmoil in Russia, Finland received some thousands of refugees. The vast majority of Russian immigration has occurred post 1990.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Jun 09 15:43
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Osweo (09-06-2012)
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Post: #52
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 15:15)Zephyr Wrote:  What Tartessos bullshit? Tartessians were pre-Celtic.

You remind me of my father always trying to anticipate what others are going to say and often failing at it. Big Grin

Ah, I´m delighted to have been wrong in this case.

But I´m almost terrified of speaking to Portuguese on these matters, dreading the names of Koch and Cunliffe! Big Grin
2012 Jun 09 16:27
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Post: #53
RE: Maps of Europe
Why would Portuguese people in particular espouse selected theories? if I may ask.

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

Jeff Hanneman 1964-2013
João Ribas 1965-2014
Lemmy Kilmister 1945-2015
2012 Jun 09 16:41
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Osweo
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Post: #54
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 16:41)Zephyr Wrote:  Why would Portuguese people in particular espouse selected theories? if I may ask.
Tons of Iberians are infected with silly Celtomania. Tartessos didn´t respect the modern boundaries, obviously, even if the greater part of it now comes under Sevilla´s rule!
2012 Jun 09 17:23
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Post: #55
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 17:23)Osweo Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 09 16:41)Zephyr Wrote:  Why would Portuguese people in particular espouse selected theories? if I may ask.
Tons of Iberians are infected with silly Celtomania.

Historically known as Celtiberians:

[Image: celtiberians.png]

But I believe those roughly correspond to what would today be Castillian-Aragonese thus I'd rather prefer to call them Celtics infected with Iberomania which is much more historically accurate... In several ways. ;)

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

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2012 Jun 09 17:50
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Osweo (09-06-2012)
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Post: #56
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 17:50)Zephyr Wrote:  Historically known as Celtiberians:

[Image: celtiberians.png]

But I believe those roughly correspond to what would today be Castillian-Aragonese thus I'd rather prefer to call them Celtics infected with Iberomania which is much more historically accurate... In several ways. ;)

Well, if you wanna talk about THOSE times, I´d say the opposite. The Iberian traits look far more like a substrate there to me. The Celtic seems an overlay as far as i can tell from onomastica. That goes for ALL the peninsula, too. It´s clear as day to me that the Celts were a relatively recent import in the late protohistoric era. Even up in Galicia there´s Iberian type toponymy. This is why the Tartessos as cradle of Celtdom so irritates me.

By the way, how do you think the authors of that map justify the labelling of the western Algarve as ´residual Tartessian´? On what basis do they do this?
2012 Jun 09 18:12
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Post: #57
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 18:12)Osweo Wrote:  Well, if you wanna talk about THOSE times, I´d say the opposite. The Iberian traits look far more like a substrate there to me. The Celtic seems an overlay as far as i can tell from onomastica. That goes for ALL the peninsula, too. It´s clear as day to me that the Celts were a relatively recent import in the late protohistoric era. Even up in Galicia there´s Iberian type toponymy. This is why the Tartessos as cradle of Celtdom so irritates me.

Never read much those theories. It's just natural imagination at work.

(While my remark had a broader meaning ;) ) I can tell you that before the Celticization of these lands, there was a East-West divide already, well documented by Greeks.

(2012 Jun 09 18:12)Osweo Wrote:  By the way, how do you think the authors of that map justify the labelling of the western Algarve as ´residual Tartessian´? On what basis do they do this?

I don't know... Among the 90 stelas found so far, 75 are in this side of the border. Almost 20 in Almodôvar alone, north of Algarve. The first 7 were found in Ourique 300 years ago, even further north. So, not residual at all.

If you ask me who were the "Tartessians", I'd go for a particular culture that was progressively replaced by some celticization.

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2012 Jun 09 18:50
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Osweo (09-06-2012)
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Post: #58
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 18:50)Zephyr Wrote:  If you ask me who were the "Tartessians", I'd go for a particular culture that was progressively replaced by some celticization.

Certainly. As I read it, there´s a good parallel in the fate of Sumer and its gradual Semitisation at the hands of Khaldean mercenaries.

It´s SUCH an old story - bastard rulers bringing in foreigners to do the dirty work, over the heads of the native common man, and eventually being kicked out themselves, the fools. PERKELE
2012 Jun 09 19:22
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Post: #59
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 09 18:12)Osweo Wrote:  Well, if you wanna talk about THOSE times, I´d say the opposite. The Iberian traits look far more like a substrate there to me. The Celtic seems an overlay as far as i can tell from onomastica. That goes for ALL the peninsula, too. It´s clear as day to me that the Celts were a relatively recent import in the late protohistoric era. Even up in Galicia there´s Iberian type toponymy.

At least regarding Catalonia, Celts (or Proto-Celtic tribes) inhabited it before the expansion of Iberians. Maybe only a few centuries before, but it did.

As for Iberians in Galicia... Huh?
2012 Jun 11 14:09
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Post: #60
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 11 14:09)Arnau Wrote:  At least regarding Catalonia, Celts (or Proto-Celtic tribes) inhabited it before the expansion of Iberians. Maybe only a few centuries before, but it did.

As for Iberians in Galicia... Huh?

When you say Iberians, you´re thinking of that urbanising cultural complex of the Levant. I was using the word inappropriately, talking of areas outside this, but I had in view peoples with linguistic relations to the Iberians-Proper. I forget your own opinion on the Vasconic question, but it seems clear to me that at least THEY had a genetic relationship linguistically with the Iberos. I see it elsewhere in the Peninsula too, from looking at the placenames recorded by the Romans. What did we have up in Galicia? Iria Flavia.
http://gl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iria_Flavia,_Padr%C3%B3n

Flavia is from the Emperor´s name, but the Iria part is definitely not Celtic.

There are other examples, but that is the one I remembered off the top of my head.

Tell us about your early Levantine Celts.
2012 Jun 11 14:41
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