Maps of Europe
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Zephyr
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Post: #71
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 19 21:57)Osweo Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 19 20:39)Zephyr Wrote:  What are the chances of getting back any of the confiscated territories? namely Petsamo access to the Arctic.

I didn´t know Finland once had such a stretch of Arctic coastline. Very interesting...
Why did Sweden not push for such a coastline back in the days before 1815, though? Seems odd that Norway should have been allowed ALL of it.

Anyway, the bargain made with the RSFSR for Petsamo/Pechenga seems rather unfortunate to me:
[Image: Treaty-of-Tartu.png]
Karelian areas, presumably with plenty of Karelians in them, handed over for the sake of "Ooh, let´s have a bit of coast up there!" where only a few fishermen and reindeer herders live - seems a poor bargain from a nationalist point of view. sad Were the eastern areas difficult to defend or something?

Interesting matter anyway, thanks for bringing it up, though it must be galling for Finns to think about.

I fail to understand why the USSR, having 35.000 km of continental coast alone, needed 20 km more.

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

Jeff Hanneman 1964-2013
João Ribas 1965-2014
Lemmy Kilmister 1945-2015
2012 Jun 19 22:13
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Post: #72
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 19 21:57)Osweo Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 19 20:39)Zephyr Wrote:  What are the chances of getting back any of the confiscated territories? namely Petsamo access to the Arctic.

I didn´t know Finland once had such a stretch of Arctic coastline. Very interesting...
Why did Sweden not push for such a coastline back in the days before 1815, though? Seems odd that Norway should have been allowed ALL of it.

That area was hardly populated and proper border demarcations are a rather mordern thing up there. The area was "promised" by Tsar Alexander II to the Finns (apparently in exchange for an armaments factory at Rajajoki, the "old border" on the Karelian Isthmus). In the mid-1800s, Finns established small settlements and fishing colonies along the coast.

Quote:Anyway, the bargain made with the RSFSR for Petsamo/Pechenga seems rather unfortunate to me:
[Image: Treaty-of-Tartu.png]
Karelian areas, presumably with plenty of Karelians in them, handed over for the sake of "Ooh, let´s have a bit of coast up there!" where only a few fishermen and reindeer herders live - seems a poor bargain from a nationalist point of view. sad Were the eastern areas difficult to defend or something?

Yes, it is a bitter irony that the few areas of East Karelia where Finnish nationalist volunteers achieved strong support and influence were so easily given up on. Repola and Porajärvi were defacto under Finnish control during the negotiations leading up to the Treaty of Dorpat. A plebiscite was held and the locals expressed a strong wish to become part of the new Finnish state. However, the moods had changed (and calmed) quite a bit in the Finnish political leadership. There was even some leaking of information from the Finnish side by social democrat Väinö Tanner, who basically told the Russians that the Finns could be persuaded to give up Repola and Porajärvi. A young nationalist named Bobi Sivén, who was in charge in Repola and Porajärvi as a volunteer and later as an appointed representative of the Finnish government (despite his young age of 21 or 22), shot himself in the heart in protest (akin to the Finnish nationalist martyr Schauman, who shot Governor-General Bobrikov in 1904). His older brother Paavo Sivén (later Susitaival) contemplated an armed insurrection (for which plans and preparations had been already made by Bobi) but gave up on the idea after the Finnish government confiscated a shipment of weapons and prohibited the arrival of further volunteers.

Quote:Interesting matter anyway, thanks for bringing it up, though it must be galling for Finns to think about.

Well, for me personally the most galling thing is the present situation of those ancient Finnic areas more than anything else. The Treaty of Dorpat obligated USSR to provide Ingrian Finns and East Karelia with cultural autonomy, but we know how that turned out.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Jun 19 22:29
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Post: #73
RE: Maps of Europe
(2012 Jun 19 22:13)Zephyr Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 19 21:57)Osweo Wrote:  
(2012 Jun 19 20:39)Zephyr Wrote:  What are the chances of getting back any of the confiscated territories? namely Petsamo access to the Arctic.

I didn´t know Finland once had such a stretch of Arctic coastline. Very interesting...
Why did Sweden not push for such a coastline back in the days before 1815, though? Seems odd that Norway should have been allowed ALL of it.

Anyway, the bargain made with the RSFSR for Petsamo/Pechenga seems rather unfortunate to me:
[Image: Treaty-of-Tartu.png]
Karelian areas, presumably with plenty of Karelians in them, handed over for the sake of "Ooh, let´s have a bit of coast up there!" where only a few fishermen and reindeer herders live - seems a poor bargain from a nationalist point of view. sad Were the eastern areas difficult to defend or something?

Interesting matter anyway, thanks for bringing it up, though it must be galling for Finns to think about.

I fail to understand why the USSR, having 35.000 km of continental coast alone, needed 20 km more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel_deposits_of_Finland

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Jun 19 22:32
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Post: #74
RE: Maps of Europe
Belgium

Leo Belgicus 1611
[Image: belgiumjodocushondiusma.jpg]

1906
[Image: belgium1906.jpg]

territorial claims 1919
[Image: belgieterritorriumclaim.jpg]

[Image: belgien.gif]

[Image: belgiumr.gif]

[Image: belgiumpoliticalmap.gif]

[Image: belgiummap.jpg]

German speaking minority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-spea...of_Belgium

[Image: belgienostbelgien2.png]

[Image: belgiendeutschsprachig.gif]

[Image: benelux.png]

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Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2012 Jun 20 06:32
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Post: #75
RE: Maps of Europe
Baarle-Hertog, Baarle-Nassau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baarle-Hertog
[Image: zxkt9ioi.gif]

[Image: 2wcbt98g.png]

[Image: tf5g9uw6.png]

[Image: enq28xjg.jpg]

[Image: an3ojdhi.jpg]

[Image: tkwszqmk.jpg]

[Image: 4x2mvydv.jpg]

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2012 Jun 21 19:19
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Post: #76
RE: Maps of Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%BCsingen_am_Hochrhein

[Image: r6jeuc6p.jpg]

[Image: bdhg3y54.jpg]

[Image: 9fgz2sou.jpg]

[Image: 8x2vkkkg.jpg]

[Image: 3qhll58k.jpg]

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2012 Jun 21 19:56
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Post: #77
RE: Maps of Europe
Swabia/Württemberg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C3%BCrttemberg
More maps ITT:
http://www.forumeuropa.net/showthread.ph...5&pid=5998

Imperial Circles (HRE ca.1512)
[Image: swabiaimperialcircles20.png]

1559
[Image: wrttembergkarte1559.jpg]

1579
[Image: deutschlandkartewuertte.jpg]

1619
[Image: wrttembergkartepieterva.jpg]

1789
[Image: deutschlandkartewu1789.jpg]

[Image: deutschlandkartewuertte.png]

[Image: deutschlandkartewuertte.png]

[Image: deutschlandkartewuertte.gif]

1895
[Image: deutschlandkartewrttemb.jpg]

[Image: wuerttemberg11german2sh.jpg]

slaughterer of Swabian peasants with Swabian flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georg,_Truc...n_Waldburg

[Image: schlosswolfeggrittersaaa.jpg]

kitsch
[Image: deutschlandflaggewrttem.jpg]

anthem
http://rian76.blogspot.de/2009/07/anthem...mberg.html




"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2012 Jul 09 19:34
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Post: #78
RE: Maps of Europe
The time of Sweden's Stormaktstid.

[Image: ockupationsmakten-sverige-1648-500px_21781630.jpg]

[Image: Karta.jpg]

[Image: karta-over-sverige-1658.jpg]

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Jul 09 19:42
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Zephyr
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Post: #79
RE: Maps of Europe
[Image: 97681517.png]

[Image: m8Qubx3.jpg]

Jeff Hanneman 1964-2013
João Ribas 1965-2014
Lemmy Kilmister 1945-2015
2012 Jul 12 04:05
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Post: #80
RE: Maps of Europe
The Baltic Finns

The situation in 1900.

[Image: 1006spraakkart.gif]

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2012 Jul 12 13:49
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