'Ask a native speaker' thread
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Hrabia
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Post: #91
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 18:53)Osweo Wrote:  How come?

How Roman soldiers were greeting each other is not known. Most common argument used by people claiming it is a Roman salute indeed, is a Jacques-Louis David's paiting - Oath of the Horatii - where characters are not saluting, but they are reaching for the swords given by their father.

What the girl does, and what Nazis have stolen (again), is Bellamy's salute, who created it at the end of 19th century and was used as an element of giving an oath to American flag. In 1942 it was no longer practised in the USA for obvious reasons.
2016 May 24 19:06
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Post: #92
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 19:06)Hrabia Wrote:  Bellamy's salute, who created it at the end of 19th century
Seems hard to believe that Mussolini and Prima de Rivera would have adopted it in that case, though not impossible, I suppose.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 24 19:59
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Quaestor
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Post: #93
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 19:06)Hrabia Wrote:  
(2016 May 24 18:53)Osweo Wrote:  How come?

How Roman soldiers were greeting each other is not known. Most common argument used by people claiming it is a Roman salute indeed, is a Jacques-Louis David's paiting - Oath of the Horatii - where characters are not saluting, but they are reaching for the swords given by their father.

What the girl does, and what Nazis have stolen (again), is Bellamy's salute, who created it at the end of 19th century and was used as an element of giving an oath to American flag. In 1942 it was no longer practised in the USA for obvious reasons.
AS far as I know, this is quite right! Or, at least, the chronology can be established, and indeed there are no earlier accounts than that 18th century painting.

Btw I don't think it has been established that the nazis or fascists literally copied the Bellamy salute; in the case of the Nazis however there are more examples of (Anglo-)American inspiration (e.g. in the race-laws with an emphasis on nordicism, in the emphasis on propaganda, and even in their anti-semitism) so it is not at all unlikely.

[Image: 800px-David-Oath_of_the_Horatii-1784.jpg]
WIKIPEDIA: Roman Salute

WIKIPEDIA: Bellamy salute

[Image: mjydjr.png]

[Image: FE_MEGA_small.jpg]
2016 May 24 20:20
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Hrabia
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Post: #94
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 19:59)Osweo Wrote:  Seems hard to believe that Mussolini and Prima de Rivera would have adopted it in that case, though not impossible, I suppose.

I think American films about ancient Rome made in 1920s may be a reason. As far as I know Americans were using it in such films to make a guy playing a Roman look more powerful.

In reality, raising a hand is a common way of greeting - probably since always. I guess it is simply natural. But in case of Romans, there are some statues where they look like saluting, while this is actually a normal greeting. For example here:

[Image: 240px-Statue-Augustus.jpg]

Augustus of Prima Porta. But a difference worth of noticing, is that Augustus does not have arm in straight position, like "Roman salute" would suggest. Also palm of a hand would not be proper.

On the other hand, Romans might have greet each other by placing a fist near to their chests, so that may be the only small connection.

However, Mussolini himself was a guy with some problems regarding the usage of gestures. Way too emotional.

[Image: benito-mussolini.gif]
2016 May 24 20:28
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Post: #95
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 20:28)Hrabia Wrote:  However, Mussolini himself was a guy with some problems regarding the usage of gestures. Way too emotional.

[Image: benito-mussolini.gif]
That probably passes for statesmanlike gravitas and cool reserve in Italy... ;)

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 May 24 21:20
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Flavius
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Post: #96
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 21:20)Osweo Wrote:  
(2016 May 24 20:28)Hrabia Wrote:  However, Mussolini himself was a guy with some problems regarding the usage of gestures. Way too emotional.

[Image: benito-mussolini.gif]
That probably passes for statesmanlike gravitas and cool reserve in Italy... ;)

It's a typical Southern European trait to be very gestural. I know in my country, we use gestures a lot like Italians do.

http://www.nytimes.com/video/world/europ...ture-.html
2016 May 24 22:12
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Temnozor
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Post: #97
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
I'm almost as Northern European as it gets (born in St. Petersburg), but I'm gesticulating like an Italian bastardo. sad

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2016 May 24 23:34
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Post: #98
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
(2016 May 24 23:34)Temnozor Wrote:  I'm almost as Northern European as it gets (born in St. Petersburg), but I'm gesticulating like an Italian bastardo. sad

Maybe it is what they call ‘stimming’?



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2016 May 25 06:22
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W. R.
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Post: #99
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
‘Ukraine’, ‘Crimea’ or ‘the Ukraine’, ‘the Crimea’?

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2016 May 27 20:08
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W. R.
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Post: #100
RE: 'Ask a native speaker' thread
Did the Third Reich have a term opposite to “entartete Kunst”?

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2017 May 18 13:34
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