Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
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Dussander
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Post: #21
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
(2013 Sep 09 18:11)Osweo Wrote:  Is this more or less correct, or is it wrong to equate the Ikavski form of Shtokavian with the old Western Shtokavian?

[Image: k8rj.png]

Štokavian is far more complex than presented on that map on the right:

[Image: Shtokavian_subdialects1988.png]

Old Western Štokavian was an archaic šćakavian speech (between što and ča, but leaning towards the latter). It's still spoken by the elderly in Slavonia (and possibly in parts of Bosnia, where it was native before massive immigration to Slavonia). So it's somewhat inaccurate to call the speech of Slavonia neoštokavian (so-called Eastern Herzegovinian on my map) because its base is šćakavian. So it's rather neoštokavianized. Many of the old features are alive and well, too, especially prosody.

Quote:Did the Ottomans deliberately transfer converts of more easterly origins to the Bihac area?

Bihać was the last area to fall to the Ottomans, so I suppose the local čakavian was already heavily altered by the influx of western štokavian refugees.

Quote:I see the Neo-Shtokavian parts of Croatia more or less follow the old Military Frontier (as well as Slavonia), yes? Has it seen a lot of resettling in recent times to change the map again?

It did see a lot of resettling since most of the Serbian population left prior to the operation Storm.

We must dissent.

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2013 Sep 09 19:42
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Osweo (09-09-2013)
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Post: #22
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
(2013 Sep 09 19:42)Dussander Wrote:  [Image: Shtokavian_subdialects1988.png]
Exactly the map I used to construct the other one!

Of course, there's as much or more internal complexity in Chakavian and Kajkavian. I just wanted to work out in my head how things had changed in 500 years.

THinking of English, however, the dialect lines have changed drastically in the same time, and don't necessarily reflect the old divisions at all.
Quote:Old Western Štokavian was an archaic šćakavian speech (between što and ča, but leaning towards the latter). It's still spoken by the elderly in Slavonia (and possibly in parts of Bosnia, where it was native before massive immigration to Slavonia). So it's somewhat inaccurate to call the speech of Slavonia neoštokavian (so-called Eastern Herzegovinian on my map) because its base is šćakavian. So it's rather neoštokavianized. Many of the old features are alive and well, too, especially prosody.
Interesting... Is the 'Slavonian' on the map a closer descendant of this old Shchakavian? I see it's by the big rivers, while the neoshtokavianisation is more in the ?high? ground between...

Was it only in Slavonia, or in what is now western Bosnia, too, this Shcho version?

Is the istochnobosansky in dark mohammedan green more or less identical to the yellow Srbski either side of it, except with a bit more merhaba and kebab to it? Big Grin

Am I wrong to equate the 'pink' Neo-Ikavian with the old (shchakavian?) West-shtokavian? I see that Chakavsky also has an Ikavsky variant.
[Image: Cakavstina.png]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...vstina.png
- so I suppose this is just something that can happen to any Jugo dialect. Perhaps it arose independently in northern Istria and in the southern islands, even?
Or are the Ikavci shto people bringing a memory of their ancient Chakavski into their new speech!?

Sorry for all the questions, but I haven't got many other people to ask. Big Grin

AH, another one! Facepalmthumbs up Is there nothing Croatian that's more transitional into Slovenian than any other Croat speech? Which is nearer - Kajkavski or Chakavski, or neither? From reading Slovene, it just looks 'pseudo-Shtokavski' to me, like Russian! That Shchakavski is pretty much Ukrainian too, given their habit to ask 'Shchoooo hovorite????' love
Quote: It did see a lot of resettling since most of the Serbian population left prior to the operation Storm.
A missed opportunity to resurrect Chakavshtina! cry

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Sep 09 21:59
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Dussander (10-09-2013)
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Post: #23
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
Oops, forgot to include this great pic that I found with the searchword 'Cakavstina':
[Image: PlakatKinoMediteran.jpg]

;)

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Sep 09 22:10
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Dussander (10-09-2013)
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Post: #24
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
(2013 Sep 09 21:59)Osweo Wrote:  Interesting... Is the 'Slavonian' on the map a closer descendant of this old Shchakavian? I see it's by the big rivers, while the neoshtokavianisation is more in the ?high? ground between...

Yes, Slavonian is šćakavian. It mostly migrated to Slavonia from Bosnia during the Ottoman wars, although most linguists claim that at least a part of Slavonia was already šćakavian at that time (the remainder was kajkavian). But it hardly exists anymore, being neoštokavianized and all that.

Quote:Was it only in Slavonia, or in what is now western Bosnia, too, this Shcho version?

The entire old western štokavian was actually šćakavian ikavian. Massive migrations caused by Ottoman conquests pushed eastern štokavians towards the western ones, which in turn created the modern neoštokavian koine.

Quote:Is the istochnobosansky in dark mohammedan green more or less identical to the yellow Srbski either side of it, except with a bit more merhaba and kebab to it? Big Grin

As far as I know, it too is descended from western štokavian, being a šćakavian speech.

Quote:Am I wrong to equate the 'pink' Neo-Ikavian with the old (shchakavian?) West-shtokavian?

It's neoštokavian ikavian now, although it is a descendant of šćakavian, if that's what you mean.

Quote:I see that Chakavsky also has an Ikavsky variant.
[Image: Cakavstina.png]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/co...vstina.png

Čakavian in Croatia used to be overwhelmingly ikavian, much like šćakavian was in Bosnia and Slavonia. So the majority of Croats used to be ikavians. The rest were mostly ekavian kajkavians, with a small minority of ijekavians (today's standard) in the far south of Croatia (Dubrovnik and its surroundings).

Quote:- so I suppose this is just something that can happen to any Jugo dialect. Perhaps it arose independently in northern Istria and in the southern islands, even?
Or are the Ikavci shto people bringing a memory of their ancient Chakavski into their new speech!?

Nope. The original Croatian heartland in Lika and northern Dalmatia used to be čakavian ikavian land. Those ikavian čakavians in Istria are there because their ancestors were refugees from the heartland. Other čakavians in Istria are more native. Tongue Other refugees fled to kajkavian Croatia (surname Horvat = Croat), where they were assimilated, as well as to Hungary and Austria (Burgenland/Gradišće).

You can hear the čakavian ikavian standard Croatian of Burgenland here.

Regarding Bihać, you can see where some of its former populace left after it fell to the Turks. (surname Bišćan = from Bihać).

Quote:Sorry for all the questions, but I haven't got many other people to ask. Big Grin

It's no problem. At least I get to share what I learned over the years. Smile

Quote:AH, another one! Facepalmthumbs up Is there nothing Croatian that's more transitional into Slovenian than any other Croat speech?

Regardless of the isoglosses between them, I think the transition between kajkavian and Slovene is mostly seamless.

Quote:Which is nearer - Kajkavski or Chakavski, or neither?

Kajkavski is closer to Slovene, although there are mixed čakavian-Slovene idioms along the border in Istria.

Quote:From reading Slovene, it just looks 'pseudo-Shtokavski' to me


Yeah, the syntax is nearly the same.

Quote:A missed opportunity to resurrect Chakavshtina! cry

Big Grin

The area was mostly repopulated by Croats who fled from Bosnia.

We must dissent.

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2013 Sep 10 11:46
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Post: #25
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
You mean that long ago the city would have been called Rika instead of Rijeka?

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2013 Sep 11 08:24
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Post: #26
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
Not so long ago. I think the current name was established during the late 19th century, but I'm not sure about that. I think the surrounding vernaculars still use Rika and Reka instead of Rijeka, although this might be limited to the elderly.

There were attempts to change the names of other cities and towns in order for them to look more similar to the štokavian ijekavian standard, but they had mixed success. So, for example, Karlovec, Rika and Pulj were changed to Karlovac, Rijeka and Pula, respectively, but the attempts to change Delnice, Split and Čakovec to Dionice, Spljet and Čakovac failed.

We must dissent.

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2013 Sep 11 12:42
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Post: #27
RE: Croatia criminalising Cyrillic script
Rika is still used in SE parts close to Rijeka (Novi vinodolski, Crikvenica, Tribalj...) while Reka is used in NE and NW parts surrounding Rijeka (Kastav, Grobnik, Opatija...).
Not limited only to the elderly. ;)

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(This post was last modified: 2013 Sep 13 07:48 by Zephyr.)
2013 Sep 11 14:08
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