Ukrainian Spring
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Temnozor
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 16:36)Whiteruthenian Wrote:  Honestly, Otto von Bismarck seems suspiciously knowledgeable about ethnic problems in Eastern Europe.

Yeah, well, he actually was. I think the relations to Russia during his period in office were the most remarkable part of his foreign policy. There are quite a few Russia related quotes of his. But you still take the point here anyway, as I can not verify the quote indeed, and I have neither found the German original, nor any hint to when or where Bismarck has said that. I, however, don't think it's too far fetched to assume that he could have said this.

It isn't that important for my argument in any case. The things that are going on now are just echos of what has been happening there for centuries. Ukraine is a country with a split identity and this very fact was always reason for outside powers (Russia included) to mess around there and massively invest political capital into straw men and traitors.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2013 Dec 02 18:52
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Treffie
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 16:32)Aemma Wrote:  Notwithstanding my dislike of the entity called the EU, I still believe it to be a matter of nationalist principle that the people of the Ukraine be permitted to voice their discontent. In the end perhaps they do have a better sense of their own wants and needs than do her politicians.

The Ukraine obviously loves Russia; just take a look at the Eurovision voting Big Grin

This is Real Politik at work ;)
2013 Dec 02 20:10
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Aemma (02-12-2013)
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 20:10)Treffie Wrote:  
(2013 Dec 02 16:32)Aemma Wrote:  Notwithstanding my dislike of the entity called the EU, I still believe it to be a matter of nationalist principle that the people of the Ukraine be permitted to voice their discontent. In the end perhaps they do have a better sense of their own wants and needs than do her politicians.

The Ukraine obviously loves Russia; just take a look at the Eurovision voting Big Grin

This is Real Politik at work ;)


Ok I'll take your word for it Treffie. But I've only ever seen Eurovision once and for only a few minutes while in Portugal--it was the finals I think. So I don't really understand how it all works. But I'll take your word for it! Big Grin

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2013 Dec 02 22:56
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 16:32)Aemma Wrote:  But here you go making the false assumption that the entirety of the western world thinks this of the Ukraine.
The vast mass of the Western world's population and their views on anything are utterly irrelevant. The ruling circles in question think of their own co-nationals in terms almost as condescending and dismissive. sad

Quote:Is the Ukraine not entitled to determine for herself with whom she would like to engage in business?
How often have protesters in your own country reflected your own views? I can barely remember any situation where I could identify politically with the demonstrations that have swamped my own capital on numerous occasions.

(2013 Dec 02 13:22)Temnozor Wrote:  They welcomed the Wehrmacht
This is the problem; WHICH 'them'? People from a region that has suffered centuries of political fracture have been told that they belong to a certain identity, without really realising who this links them to (i.e. people they have hardly anything in common with) and who it divides them from (i.e. their neighbours on the other side of the arbitrary imaginary line across a field down the road from them, who are far more like them).

(2013 Dec 02 18:52)Temnozor Wrote:  Ukraine is a country with a split identity

A state uniting several countries with potentially diametrically opposing identities.

It's just a shame that the great great great grandparents of the present Ukrainian population so easily took to the notion of being 'Ukrainian'. Would have been better if some sort of Galician identity had been allowed to emerge, leaving most of the rest to join organically with Russia.

I am reminded of that Ukrainian girl we used to have on the other forum, what was her name? She changed it a lot, but I recall her going under 'A. Squiggles' and 'Feya', if anyone else remembers. She could explain better than I can the way in which the more eastern and central Ukrainians (not simply 'Russians' like in the Crimea or coastal regions, but people who have been historical 'Ukrainian for centuries) have a far more nuanced attitude to 'russkost'' or 'Russianness'. It's not a kneejerk revulsion thing for them, unless they're very young and have been brainwashed by recent policy in education and the media. They are sensibly able to recognise their kinship links across the borders drawn by the Soviet state.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Dec 02 23:50
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Post: #15
RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 23:50)Osweo Wrote:  
(2013 Dec 02 16:32)Aemma Wrote:  But here you go making the false assumption that the entirety of the western world thinks this of the Ukraine.
The vast mass of the Western world's population and their views on anything are utterly irrelevant. The ruling circles in question think of their own co-nationals in terms almost as condescending and dismissive. sad

Well this could be said of anything and everybody. It's not particular to the Western world.

I know you hate the Western world, Ossi. But it doesn't mean that in your hatred of it you are always correct in your interpretation of it. I'm a Westerner. I can't do much about that. It doesn't mean however that I cannot empathise with a distinct cultural group that is located elsewhere in the world. You'll take exception to my stating that Ukrainians are a distinct cultural group, I know. But they are not Russian; they are Ukrainian, much like French Canadians are not English Canadians despite the very same blood and history that courses through our veins. It's no different.

I don't understand how you can deny Ukrainians their own cultural identity like that.

Ossi Wrote:
Aemma Wrote:Is the Ukraine not entitled to determine for herself with whom she would like to engage in business?
How often have protesters in your own country reflected your own views? I can barely remember any situation where I could identify politically with the demonstrations that have swamped my own capital on numerous occasions.

Hang on a minute. You support the Assad government and the war in Syria for various reasons but one of which is the fact that Alawites as a minority group have a bit more sensitivity towards other minority groups and see the value in keeping some kind of ethnic diversity thriving yet you wouldn't even extend the same to Ukrainians?

I'm obviously missing something here.

I honestly don't see the problem with a people of a sovereign nation voicing its discontent with a decision made by its government. I think this is healthy for maintaining the sovereignty of said nation, no? At the risk of sounding like some misguided freedom fighter, I DO think it is their right to do so. Whether you or I agree with any of it or not is rather immaterial. But I will defend that nation's citizenry to voice its opinion on any matter political.

Ossi Wrote:
(2013 Dec 02 13:22)Temnozor Wrote:  They welcomed the Wehrmacht
This is the problem; WHICH 'them'? People from a region that has suffered centuries of political fracture have been told that they belong to a certain identity, without really realising who this links them to (i.e. people they have hardly anything in common with) and who it divides them from (i.e. their neighbours on the other side of the arbitrary imaginary line across a field down the road from them, who are far more like them).

(2013 Dec 02 18:52)Temnozor Wrote:  Ukraine is a country with a split identity

A state uniting several countries with potentially diametrically opposing identities.

It's just a shame that the great great great grandparents of the present Ukrainian population so easily took to the notion of being 'Ukrainian'. Would have been better if some sort of Galician identity had been allowed to emerge, leaving most of the rest to join organically with Russia.

Galicians...You would have Poles not be Poles too then? I honestly don't see what is wrong with being "Ukrainian" or with being "Polish." They are nation-states reflective of distinct peoples. Why not say that Croatia and Serbia *ought to be* more in sync with one another then?

I honestly fail to see what the problem is with maintaining distinction of cultural nuances despite the "Brotherhood". :/

I'll tell you one thing from personal experience however: Ukrainian Canadians are proud to be Ukrainian. It's their primary culture, then comes being Canadian. If Ukrainians have no concerns with seeing themselves as Ukrainians, I don't see why such really ought to matter to non-Ukrainians. It ought not matter to us one damn bit in the end. It should only matter to Ukrainians and how they wish to define themselves in the world.

: shrug :

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2013 Dec 03 00:27
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
Quite taxing to argue the same thing with the same person on two forums at once, but here goes! Big Grin
(2013 Dec 03 00:27)Aemma Wrote:  Well this could be said of anything and everybody. It's not particular to the Western world.
I would query that assumption, actually. Chinese Party bosses might treat Chinese peasants like shit, but they are still highly conscious of a Chinese national mission. Same for Arabs, Iranians, Turks, you name it. But not in the West. Only we were able to come up with this self-negating cosmopolitanism and refusal to identify with ethnic interests and identities in politics. It's absurd to most outsiders, and horrific to those insiders who've remained immune.
Quote:I know you hate the Western world, Ossi. But it doesn't mean that in your hatred of it you are always correct in your interpretation of it.
Online we don't always spell out fully what me mean, or would even like to in speech, but you are doing me a disservice here, no doubt about it. If you qualified it a bit, it would make sense, but never mind that...
Quote:I'm a Westerner. I can't do much about that. It doesn't mean however that I cannot empathise with a distinct cultural group that is located elsewhere in the world. You'll take exception to my stating that Ukrainians are a distinct cultural group, I know. But they are not Russian; they are Ukrainian, much like French Canadians are not English Canadians despite the very same blood and history that courses through our veins. It's no different.

I don't understand how you can deny Ukrainians their own cultural identity like that.
This is the issue; these 'Ukrainians' don't exist the way you understand it. There are people in Lvov who feel one way about what the Ukrainian identity should be, and people in Chernigov, Poltava, Sumi, Uzhgorod and Zaporozhya with radically different notions about it, not to mention people in Odessa and Sevastopol who refuse to even be called Ukrainians in the first place. It's the clash between the first two that you need to get your head around the most. The second lot are not Great Russians. They are Ukrainian, but it means a very different thing to being Ukrainian in Galicia. It's no coincidence that the vehemence of feeling is directly proportional to the proximity with the capitals of external powers who took their share in chopping up old Rus'.
Quote:Hang on a minute. You support the Assad government and the war in Syria for various reasons but one of which is the fact that Alawites as a minority group have a bit more sensitivity towards other minority groups and see the value in keeping some kind of ethnic diversity thriving yet you wouldn't even extend the same to Ukrainians?

I'm obviously missing something here.
You are, and it is the fact that 'Ukrainian' refers to three or more potential ethnic groupings, even without dealing with the actual 'Russians' marooned in the state.

Western-sponsored (today by the EU, yesterday by the Third Reich, previously by the Recz Pospolitas and Habsburg Empire) Lvov Ukrainianism is exactly the diversity stifling force you are decrying here. I have no doubt that many of the actors involved have a fully clean conscience and view a lot of their policies as 'regrettably necessary', requiring political coercion in the short term for longer term 'nation building' reasons. But it's still possible to disagree with such projects. Social engineering, so it is.
Quote:I honestly don't see the problem with a people of a sovereign nation voicing its discontent with a decision made by its government. I think this is healthy for maintaining the sovereignty of said nation, no? At the risk of sounding like some misguided freedom fighter, I DO think it is their right to do so. Whether you or I agree with any of it or not is rather immaterial. But I will defend that nation's citizenry to voice its opinion on any matter political.
A nation's citizenry can't all assemble and riot in the capital. To do so requires organisation and money, which is clearly coming from outside and supporting just the one side in the question at stake. The others are obviously now intimidated in Kiev itself, and too busy or far away in other regions to make their opinions felt.
Quote:Galicians...You would have Poles not be Poles too then? I honestly don't see what is wrong with being "Ukrainian" or with being "Polish." They are nation-states reflective of distinct peoples. Why not say that Croatia and Serbia *ought to be* more in sync with one another then?

I honestly fail to see what the problem is with maintaining distinction of cultural nuances despite the "Brotherhood". :/
I have already tried to explain why 'Ukrainian' is not so simple a term as you seem to realise, but there is also another matter at stake, which is the undermining of the dangerously unbalanced unipolar geopolitical situation. Just as the Westernising Ukrainians view their coercion of their eastern brothers as a necessity from a wider perspective, so we have to look a little wider still, and reveal the Westernising trend as just as parochial and myopic as the conservative inertia they are fighting with, when viewed in light of the need to get the vice grip of Western politico-financial tyranny off the neck of as many countries as possible, in the hope that its hold can eventually be weakened and toppled at home.
Quote:I'll tell you one thing from personal experience however: Ukrainian Canadians are proud to be Ukrainian. It's their primary culture, then comes being Canadian. If Ukrainians have no concerns with seeing themselves as Ukrainians, I don't see why such really ought to matter to non-Ukrainians. It ought not matter to us one damn bit in the end. It should only matter to Ukrainians and how they wish to define themselves in the world.
I'll start taking Winnipeg Canadians with -enko on their name seriously the day I admit Massachusetts 'Irish' their input on British Isles issues. ;)

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Dec 03 01:22
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
Quote:I'll start taking Winnipeg Canadians with -enko on their name seriously the day I admit Massachusetts 'Irish' their input on British Isles issues.

That's seriously shitty what you just said there--and again it's not even comparable. They're more Ukrainian--and more Slavic--than you'll ever be in your lifetime. It just goes to show me the lack of scope in your overall analysis. The big picture is way bigger than your beloved infallible Mother Russia, you know. That's just despicable that you would deny people their rightful ethnicity. It's not yours to take that away from them either. You have no idea what the Ukrainian community has done here and what it's done for the Ukraine. You so very much speak out of turn here. You have no idea.

S'ok, I know who the Ukrainians are. I don't need your skewed assessment to tell me differently.

Go ahead and think that everything is some big Western conspiracy, Ossi. But worse, that New Worlders have no rights to their ethnicity no matter what it is since they no longer live in whatever Motherland. Typical Old World ignorance. Rolleyes


By the way, all hail the great master race--the Soviets! Heil Hitler and all that shit too while I'm at it. Rolleyes

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2013 Dec 03 03:12
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Temnozor
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 23:50)Osweo Wrote:  This is the problem; WHICH 'them'? People from a region that has suffered centuries of political fracture have been told that they belong to a certain identity, without really realising who this links them to (i.e. people they have hardly anything in common with) and who it divides them from (i.e. their neighbours on the other side of the arbitrary imaginary line across a field down the road from them, who are far more like them).

Yeah, I actually was talking about our Ukrainian redneck friends in Galicia and Wolhynia. Big Grin

(2013 Dec 02 23:50)Osweo Wrote:  A state uniting several countries with potentially diametrically opposing identities.

Sort of, yes. I'd add, though, that there are not only genuinely different people caught in this mess, but that in recent years a massive fake-identity modelling has taken place that has fucked up the minds of a couple of Ukro-nationalists to a point where they lost all links to actual Ukrainian identity (and reality) at all. I'm talking about madness here, like those folks who have created an unrecognised Ukrainian branch of the Orthodox church in order just not to be part of the patriarchy of Moscow (because it's evil). Facepalm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_...triarchate

(2013 Dec 03 00:27)Aemma Wrote:  But they are not Russian; they are Ukrainian

Well, "Ukraine" actually means just "borderland" in East Slavic languages (guess whose). I'm okay with the notion that they are not Russian, but "borderlanders" sounds like a weird and funny word to name an ethnicity by it. Osweo is actually closer at the truth, when he is stating that "Galician" bears a lot more ground for identity foundation than "Ukrainian".

(2013 Dec 03 00:27)Aemma Wrote:  I honestly don't see the problem with a people of a sovereign nation voicing its discontent with a decision made by its government.

Neither is Ukraine a sovereign nation (it's a battleground of rivaling powers), nor does it currently deal with genuine upheaval, but with just another move of foreign "investors". In post-soviet countries "vox populi" is not much of a factor that matters in political issues, I mean even less than in other places. If they had been asked, in 1990 the majority of Ukrainians would have voted for the preservation of the Soviet Union ...

(2013 Dec 03 00:27)Aemma Wrote:  I honestly don't see what is wrong with being "Ukrainian" or with being "Polish." They are nation-states reflective of distinct peoples.

Ukraine as a nation state is a 20 years old joke of history, it's not really reflective of anything and that's pretty much the core problem of it.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2013 Dec 03 12:06
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Post: #19
RE: Ukrainian Spring
It is a fact that for the last 20 years there has been a very strong propaganda campaign in Ukraine telling Ukrainians they are not only European but EU material. Looking at the countries now organized in the EU and then looking at the Ukraine every idiot can see that they're not and most likely won't be in 100 years time. Obviously they aren't proper Russians either - with the historical detail of millions of Ukrainians peasants systematically being starved to death pretty much being the foundation of what then became Soviet communism. Putin's KGB past does not help him win friends in the Ukraine.

Another point is the role of the opposition in the Ukraine which isn't homegrown but imported and consisting of Vitali Klitschko who for some reason manged to speak neither proper Russian, nor proper English, nor proper German although he is a doctor (OK, sport "sciences", but still...) Can't judge his Ukrainian literacy but when I see him in interviews I get the impression that he took far too many jabs to his blockhead in his career. Klitschko is trying to buy himself a political career, because his days as a boxer are coming to an end, as the number of folks consenting to orchestrated and manipulated fights is getting very low. As he was born in Kirgisia he may as well try it over there, as it is equally corrupt. The funny thing is that he criticizes the political system of the Ukraine while obviously being unaware of the fact that most EU member countries are organized exactly the same way. So he basically wants to be caliph instead of the caliph, using standard catchwords. For becoming presidents of the Ukraine he does not only have to buy the election, though, he would also have to fulfill the requirement of having lived in the Ukraine for the last ten years before the election, unless he gets that requirement changed beforehand. Obviously this requirement makes a lot of sense and everyone and his dogs claims to be Ukrainian these days, telling real Ukrainians what they should think and whom the should vote for.

And as the vote of no confidence just failed it seems the opposition isn't even half as attractive to Ukrainians as the western emdia want to make us believe.


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Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
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2013 Dec 03 12:54
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W. R.
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Post: #20
RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 03 01:22)Osweo Wrote:  This is the issue; these 'Ukrainians' don't exist the way you understand it. There are people in Lvov who feel one way about what the Ukrainian identity should be, and people in Chernigov, Poltava, Sumi, Uzhgorod and Zaporozhya with radically different notions about it, not to mention people in Odessa and Sevastopol who refuse to even be called Ukrainians in the first place.

And yet there exists one Ukrainian identity, that is shared by all Ukrainians, although the borders of the identity may be hazy. Attitude to some historical figures or towards some events may divide Ukrainians, but there are many things that still unite them: many cultural figures, general understanding of the national history (and many myths of it) etc.

All the prominent Ukrainian politicians and activists of the XX century from hardcore nationalists to hardcore communists under the name "Ukrainians" understood the natives of the land "from the San to the Don". In this sense all of them shared the same Ukrainian identity. Bandera might consider Khrushchev a bad Ukrainian, and Khrushchev might consider Bandera a bad Ukrainian but they did not believe that they belonged to different nations, they didn't deny each other's right to be called Ukrainian.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2013 Dec 03 13:26
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