Ukrainian Spring
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Mustapaita
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Ukrainian Spring
Big protests in Kiev at the moment.

Can someone more slavically inclined explain why the nationalist Svoboda is pro-EU? Is simply about being anti-Russia?

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2013 Dec 02 12:39
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Aramis
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 12:39)Mustapaita Wrote:  Big protests in Kiev at the moment.

Can someone more slavically inclined explain why the nationalist Svoboda is pro-EU? Is simply about being anti-Russia?

I guess for the same simple reasons most nationalists in the west are pro-Russian.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Samo kurvi i konobaru pare ostavljam.
2013 Dec 02 13:01
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W. R.
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
Maybe they want to get some scores by exploiting the slogan that is relatively popular among Ukrainians?

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2013 Dec 02 13:15
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Temnozor
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 12:39)Mustapaita Wrote:  Is simply about being anti-Russia?

Short answer: Yes. They welcomed the Wehrmacht in 1941 for the very same reason.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2013 Dec 02 13:22
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W. R.
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 13:22)Temnozor Wrote:  Short answer: Yes. They welcomed the Wehrmacht in 1941 for the very same reason.

Maybe it is generally true for the Ukrainian nationalists of today, but the nationalists of the past were less primitive.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2013 Dec 02 13:48
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Temnozor
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 13:48)Whiteruthenian Wrote:  Maybe it is generally true for the Ukrainian nationalists of today, but the nationalists of the past were less primitive.

Probably true, but the antagony with Moscow is staying the most common denominator in the history of this particular region, as far as the last couple of centuries are concerned. Most importantly, it never passed unnoticed by rivaling Great Powers:

Quote:Western Ukrainian Russophiles (Ukrainian: Pусофіли, Rusofily) were participants in a cultural and political movement largely in the Western Ukraine. This ideology emphasized that since the people of Galicia (Halychyna) were descendents of the people of Kievan Rus' (Ruthenians), and followers of Eastern Christianity, that they were thus a branch of the Russian people. The movement was part of the whole Pan-Slavism that was developing in the late 19th century. Russophilia was largely a reaction against Polish (in Galicia) and Hungarian (in Transcarpathia) cultural suppression that was largely associated with Roman Catholicism.

[...]

The Austrian government also contributed significantly to the Ukrainophiles' victory. Initially Austria had supported Russophilia as a counterbalance to the Poles and Hungarians. During the latter part of the 19th century, as Austria-Hungary and Russia became rivals, the Austrian authorities became alarmed by the Russophiles' activities. To maintain the loyalty of the Ukrainian population, the Austrian authorities made concessions to Ukrainian causes, such as expanding the Ukrainian educational system, and in 1893 made the Ukrainophile version of the vernacular Ukrainian language the language of instruction. Doing so effectively shut the Russophiles out of the educational system. During the 1880s the Austrians put many Russophiles on trial for treason or espionage. These trials were widely publicized, and served to discredit the Russophiles among the Ukrainian people, most of whom continued to be loyal to the Austrian Emperor. One of the prosecuters was Kost Levitsky, who later became an important Ukrainian politician. The Austrians also deported an editor of the Russophile newspaper Slovo and deposed the Russophile head of the Greek Catholic Church, Metropolitan Joseph Sembratovych.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Russophiles

"Могущество России может быть подорвано только отделением от неё Украины… необходимо не только оторвать, но и противопоставить Украину России. Для этого нужно только найти и взрастить предателей среди элиты и с их помощью изменить самосознание одной части великого народа до такой степени, что он будет ненавидеть всё русское, ненавидеть свой род, не осознавая этого. Всё остальное — дело времени." - Отто фон Бисмарк

"The power of Russia can only be undermined by splitting off Ukraine from it... it is therefore necessary not only to separate, but also to antagonise Ukraine towards Russia. For that sake one must just find and aid traitors among the elites, and with their help change the self-identification of one part of a great people to such a degree, that it will hate everything Russian, hate its own people and don't even notice it. Everything else is just a matter of time." - Otto von Bismarck

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2013 Dec 02 15:22
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
Pick your master...

[Image: 1390559_646959072022490_261150530_n.jpg]

If it came to it, I think I might prefer a master who actually had some vague idea of who I was, and didn't look down on me as some kind of primitive Asiatic peasant.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Dec 02 15:33
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Aemma
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 15:33)Osweo Wrote:  Pick your master...

[Image: 1390559_646959072022490_261150530_n.jpg]

If it came to it, I think I might prefer a master who actually had some vague idea of who I was, and didn't look down on me as some kind of primitive Asiatic peasant.

But here you go making the false assumption that the entirety of the western world thinks this of the Ukraine. Is the Ukraine not entitled to determine for herself with whom she would like to engage in business?

Notwithstanding my dislike of the entity called the EU, I still believe it to be a matter of nationalist principle that the people of the Ukraine be permitted to voice their discontent. In the end perhaps they do have a better sense of their own wants and needs than do her politicians.

~Be the Virtuous Man or Woman you are meant to be.~
2013 Dec 02 16:32
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W. R.
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
(2013 Dec 02 15:22)Temnozor Wrote:  "The power of Russia can only be undermined by splitting off Ukraine from it... it is therefore necessary not only to separate, but also to antagonise Ukraine towards Russia. For that sake one must just find and aid traitors among the elites, and with their help change the self-identification of one part of a great people to such a degree, that it will hate everything Russian, hate its own people and don't even notice it. Everything else is just a matter of time." - Otto von Bismarck

Honestly, Otto von Bismarck seems suspiciously knowledgeable about ethnic problems in Eastern Europe.

[Image: tumblr_lkzaeq4vRJ1qz4a7ho1_400.jpg]

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2013 Dec 02 16:36
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RE: Ukrainian Spring
Yes, that is a highly suspicious quote. Bismarck had a notoriously PRO-Russian foreign policy, indeed. The Austrians had a vested interest in stoking anti-Russian sentiment, and were responsible for a lot of the ideas now current among Ukrainian oppositionists, as were the Poles, but the sort of ideas in that quote are from a later period, when rulers were far less wise. Could just be made up, of course.

As for 'the Ukrainian people' - far from all of them were on the streets making trouble. The West has money, but it can't buy everyone in every strategically important country.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2013 Dec 02 17:11
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