Scottish independence thread
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Xmia
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Rainbow Scottish independence thread
There are several posts on this theme already but as they deal with & specific articles with the vote almost upon us I thought a generic one for discussion/articles/fallout would be more appropriate.

A 'Yes' vote would be the best thing eva to happen for nationalism on this island (not that there's much competition, to be honest) but I fully expect them to bottle it when the big moment arrives - being a bit of a cynic & that 'status quo bias' would be too strong. Also quite a powerful array of politicians, businesses and celebrities have supported the 'no' vote (though none of them quite as important as Groundskeeper Willie supporting the 'yes', maybe)?

What effect (if any) do you guys think a yes (or a no) would have on other european independence movements & nationalism generally? Some people have suggested the EU might not allow Scotland to join if it were independent out of fear of encouraging other separatist groups (especially the Spanish are supposed to be concerned about this).
[Image: Map-Of-Separatist-Movements.jpg]

image made by Russians in support... ;)
[Image: 0_a5805_72581682_orig.jpg]

I'll be taking a tin of Heinz Scotch Broth to work as lunch tomorrow as culinary support. Despite my doubts, Allah willing, it will happen.
[Image: Heinz_Scotch_Broth_Soup_400G.jpg]
2014 Sep 17 23:19
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Aptrgangr
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RE: Scottish independence thread












Scotland's example to inspire the Åland Islands
https://translate.google.com/translate?s...t=&act=url

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/20140917...4_uu.shtml

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2014 Sep 18 00:15
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RE: Scottish independence thread
Give back Icenii tribal lands.
2014 Sep 18 00:49
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Xmia
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RE: Scottish independence thread
(2014 Sep 18 00:49)Tintagell Wrote:  Give back Icenii tribal lands.

To who? ;)

Here's an article I find agreeable by Pat Buchanan (yes, that's right). I like the take vs the 'muh economics' counter-arguments that are the main thrust of the 'no' campaign.

Quote:What Would Braveheart Do?

No matter how the vote turns out on Thursday in Scotland, either for independence or continued union with Britain, the disintegration of the Old Continent appears almost inevitable.

Already the British government has conceded that, even if the Scots vote for union, Edinburgh will receive greater powers to rule itself.

Cheering for the breakup of the U.K. are Catalans and Basques, Bretons and Corsicans, Tyroleans, Venetians, Flemish, all dreaming of nations of their own carved out of Spain, France, Italy and Belgium.

Europe’s secessionists have waxed ever stronger since the last decade of the 20th century when the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia splintered into 22 nations and Czechoslovakia broke in two.

Abkhazians and Ossetians then broke from Georgia as Transnistria fought free of Moldova. Chechnya went to war twice to escape from Russia. Secessionists now battle Russia in Ingushetsia and Dagestan.

The decomposition of the nations of Old Europe is the triumph of tribalism over transnationalism. The heart has reasons that the mind knows not, said Pascal. And the wild heart is winning.

The call of blood, history, faith, culture and memory is winning the struggle against Economism, the Western materialist ideology that holds that the desire for money and things is what ultimately motivates mankind.

Economics uber alles. Here is Niall Ferguson in the New York Times wondering how these crazy Scots could think of seceding from England.

“The economic risks are so glaring that even Paul Krugman and I agree it’s a terrible idea. What currency will Scotland use? The pound? The euro? No one knows. What share of North Sea oil revenues will go to Edinburgh? What about Scotland’s share of Britain’s enormous national debt?”

A Scottish vote for independence, Ferguson wails, “would have grave economic consequences, and not just for Scotland. Investment has already stalled. Big companies based in Scotland, notably the pensions giant Standard Life, have warned of relocating to England. Jobs would definitely be lost. The recent steep decline in the pound shows that the financial world hates the whole idea.”

Niall Ferguson is not the kind of fellow who would have been out there at midnight dumping the King’s tea into Boston harbor in 1773.

And he would surely have admonished those stupid farmers on the Concord Bridge that if they didn’t put those muskets down, they could wind up ruining the colonies’ trade with the Mother Country.

“What currency will we use?” Ferguson would have demanded of Jefferson in Independence Hall in 1776.

Yet it is not only in Scotland where peoples are deciding that what separates them is more important than what unites them. Secessionism is ablaze all over the world.

All those straight lines on Middle East maps drawn up by Sykes and Picot are being erased. The Syria and Iraq we have known will never be the same again, as the Shia-Sunni divide deepens and the Kurds of Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran come together.

In this century, we have seen Ethiopia and Sudan break in two, and now South Sudan hosts a tribal-civil war between Dinka and Nuer.

Facing secessionist movements in Tibet and the Uighur lands of the west, Beijing is exporting Han Chinese by the trainload to repopulate the regions. Much like Stalin did with the Baltic republics he annexed in 1940.

Vladimir Putin is perhaps the most popular leader alive for bringing home to Mother Russia the Crimea and making a virtual protectorate of the Russified southeastern Ukraine.

But it is not only secessionism that imperils the One Europe of Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman and their historic achievement, the EU. In Britain, France, Holland, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary and most of the countries of Europe, populist parties have arisen to liberate their nations from what they see as the soft dictatorship of the EU.

Foremost among these are Nigel Farage’s Independence Party, the UKIP, and the National Front of Marine Le Pen, who is now running ahead of President Francois Hollande in national polls. This weekend, the Sweden Democrats, a rightist party, doubled its strength, taking 13 percent of the vote as Stockholm’s conservative government fell.

What assures the growth of these parties is what engendered them — mass immigration from the Third World and the attendant rise in crime, Islamism and social disorder.

And what is there to halt the waves of immigration in boats and rafts from across the Mediterranean? Nothing. Out of a Middle East descending into chaos will come millions of Arab and Muslim refugees.

The African continent, which had 1.2 billion people in 2013, will have 2.3 billion in 2050, and 4.2 billion by century’s end.

Hundreds of millions of these African folks will be fleeing these lands to occupy the empty places left by the depopulating nations of Europe, not one of whom has a fertility rate to ensure that its native people survive.

As for the Scots, not to worry if Goldman Sachs is bearish on secession. When you enter the polling booths, just ask yourselves:

What would Braveheart do?
2014 Sep 18 01:06
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Blackthorne
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RE: Scottish independence thread




London probably hasn't been this apoplectic since the Scots marched into England in 1648. Tongue

You goddamn communist heathen, you had best sound off that you love the Virgin Mary... or I'm gonna stomp your guts out!
2014 Sep 18 04:26
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Phlegethon
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RE: Scottish independence thread
If things work out I shall be emigrating to an independent Scotland soon. Germany is getting too hot for me during summers.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2014 Sep 18 08:21
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RE: Scottish independence thread
https://networks.h-net.org/node/3911/dis...kly-update


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2014 Sep 18 08:49
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Mustapaita
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RE: Scottish independence thread
(2014 Sep 18 00:15)Aptrgangr Wrote:  Scotland's example to inspire the Åland Islands
https://translate.google.com/translate?s...t=&act=url

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/20140917...4_uu.shtml

Its just an interview with a politician, who along with his party have been around for a while. I doubt the Ålanders would like to become independent, their deal with Finland is too sweet.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2014 Sep 18 13:25
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Phlegethon
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RE: Scottish independence thread
Åland then would have to massively invest in post office boxes, copying Liechtenstein and Luxemburg.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2014 Sep 18 13:56
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RE: Scottish independence thread
RBS and Lloyds will leave Scotland if it votes for independence

Banks reveal they have made contingency plans, with the Treasury saying the move was "understandable"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsb...dence.html


'Yes' or 'No'? A Divided Scotland Confronts Independence Vote

By Christoph Scheuermann
Photo Gallery: Caledonian Spring

Liam Stevenson was never the type to become particularly passionate about politics. A tank truck driver in Scotland, he spent most of his free time with his wife Helen and daughter Melissa in their small house in Cumbernauld, northeast of Glasgow. Every now and then, he would join his friends for a few pints.

But a couple of months ago, he experienced a transformation not unlike that of Franz Kafka's character Gregor Samsa, who became a new creature overnight. Stevenson became a political activist.

He guides his Volkswagen Golf past working class housing cowering in the shadows of gigantic residential towers. Cumbernauld was created after the war and has since become a Scottish dystopia. It is a place that remains stuck somewhere between the 1950s and 1980s. In the cold jargon of the welfare bureaucracy, the housing projects are known as "schemes" and look just as soulless as the word sounds. Stevenson spent his childhood here. He waves at a man on the way by. "That's Paul. He stabbed his son in the face. No idea why." (...)

http://www.spiegel.de/international/euro...88064.html

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2014 Sep 18 18:14
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