Scottish independence thread
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Treffie
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Post: #21
RE: Scottish independence thread
(2014 Sep 19 10:42)Phlegethon Wrote:  Cowards.

Yep, I think so too. It's now all a massive Pandora's Box. If Scotland had voted yes, at least they would be be able to make their own mistakes. Now what's happened is that the Conservatives at Westminster have promised `Devo Max` for Scotland, increased powers for Wales and Northern Ireland and some sort of package for England, including addressing the West Lothian question all by March 2015, which is all very convenient due to the forthcoming general election in May 2015. If this all goes well, this will play into the hands of the conservatives, but if it goes tits up, it could be disastrous for them. The SNP will be watching these events very closely and if this plan isn't implemented, they will see that the Govt has reneged, opening up the possibility of another referendum in 5 or 6 years time.

Many academics such as Prof Vernon Bogdanor see this timeline of action is much too short a time to change the face of British politics, preferring a much more protracted examination and implementation scheme. In addition to this, the Labour party doesn't want the West Lothian question addressed because it would affect their majorities in certain areas, in effect Labour will be depending on Scottish MPs to vote on English matters. On top of this, there is going to be speculation as to who would be elected as England's First Minister. Nigel Farage from UKIP will certainly put himself forward as will Boris Johnson. Now, the REAL squabbling has begun.
2014 Sep 19 15:12
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Post: #22
RE: Scottish independence thread
Same old problem of 'nationalists' stupidly insisting on the borders imposed on them by the old feudal past... If they'd gone for the sensible borders of the late 1330s, they wudda done well;
[Image: xo4p6q.jpg]

That bit of Galloway in dark red at the bottom is probably only like that cos of voters over in Dumfriesshire proper in the east, along the border. Culturally, it has more in common with Ayrshire to the north, I suspect, and might well have been 'green' or even light blue if it had been polled separately.

So, take away:
Dumfries & Galloway - 122,036: 34.33 yes, 65.67 no = 36,614 vs 70,039
East Lothian - 81,945: 38.28 yes, 61.72 no ======== 27,467 vs 44,283
Edinburgh - 378, 012: 38.90 yes, 61.10 no ======== 123,927 vs 194,638
Midlothian - 69,617: 43.70 yes, 56.30 no ========= 26,370 vs 33,972
Orkney Islands - 17,806: 32.80 yes, 67.20 no ======= 4,883 vs 10,004
Scottish Borders - 95,533: 33.44 yes, 66.56 no ====== 27,906 vs 55,553
Shetland Islands - 18,516: 36.29 yes, 63.71 no ====== 5,669 vs 9,951
West Lothian - 138,226: 44.82 yes, 55.18 no ======= 53,342 vs 65,682
-----------------------------------------------------306,178 vs 484,122
the whole country was ---------------------------- 1,617,989 vs 2,001,926
so my 'pruned down Scotland' wudda been ---------- 1,311,811 vs 1,517,804

Aw FUCK, bastards STILL wun'ta pissed off! PERKELE Christ, what does it TAKE!?

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2014 Sep 19 15:56
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Erwann
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Post: #23
RE: Scottish independence thread
There are 880.000 foreigners in Scotland (17% of the Scottish population) who were able to vote while the Scottish diaspora wasn't able to vote. And as you can see the foreigners were quite against independence and the independentists needed 300.000 votes to win.

[Image: 1410519424565_wps_5_scottish_independenc​e_vot.jpg]

Source

The same crap happened in Quebec in 1995, they lost their independence with english speaking immigrants.

Also the old generation is more "conservative" as always: NEARLY three-quarters of the UK's over-50s are opposed to Scottish independence. They are probably frightened for their pensions.
2014 Sep 19 19:43
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Post: #24
RE: Scottish independence thread
I demand a re-vote! Big Grin

Russia cries foul over Scottish independence vote
2014 Sep 19 22:19
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Post: #25
RE: Scottish independence thread
Police Investigating Alleged Vote Fraud In Glasgow

Video at link.

There did seem to be an awful large turnout for this referendum.
2014 Sep 20 16:54
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Xmia
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Post: #26
RE: Scottish independence thread
[Image: vader.jpg]

(2014 Sep 19 15:56)Osweo Wrote:  Aw FUCK, bastards STILL wun'ta pissed off! PERKELE Christ, what does it TAKE!?

Never mind... when the revolution comes I guess we can give it to them. Y'gotta admit that would be pretty delicious - English giving Scotland independence, since they couldn't do it by themselves Tongue I'm sure the terms in such a (as of yet, admittedly fanciful) scenario would be much more cooperative than the bribes/threats the current establishment used.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

A pre-vote article by Ed West that recently came to my attention. It also touches on the 'Economism vs emotions' theme that the Pat Buchanan article I posted earlier does. The point that it was old people who mostly voted 'no' is interesting (more boomer evil? Tongue) although I think it's optimistic to think that means things will change shortly because the younger gen. has a different view (I don't think the establishment would want to rerun the vote any time soon) - that is, unless the establishment itself is done away with ;)

Quote:Hugo Rifkind had an interesting piece in the Times yesterday on the Scottish referendum arguing that the No campaign, by focussing on economics and pragmatism (where they obviously have the edge), had totally conceded the realm of emotion and attachment. Yet Rifkind, coming south in his twenties to settle in London, had found that England was his home, too, and ends his article explaining why Britain is indeed one country.

The whole No campaign seems devoid of any idea of British patriotism, indeed barely mentions the B-word in its literature, instead approaching the thing like an unhappy spouse weighing up the costs of sticking with it or leaving to end up poorer. If that’s the reason for union, then it’s not one that’s going to keep the marriage going for very long; and indeed opinion polls show a huge gulf between the over-sixties and the rest of the Scottish population, which suggests that whatever the result this month, independence will come eventually.

And in the south many of those advocating the United Kingdom sound remarkably like they could be making the case for the European Union, using arguments for pooling resources to create a social democracy. JK Rowling’s [labour supporting, traitor propagandist - me mad] version of British patriotism may have angered some of the SNP’s weirder supporters, but it would leave many Englishmen cold. Likewise with Eddie Izzard or Tony Robinson: the cheerleaders for union are mainly coming from the soft Left, the very people who least empathise with patriotism or understand the things that hold people together – history, mythology and hormones. The union was built on Protestantism, war and empire, ideas that the Left feels uncomfortable with, and no one has really come up with replacement reasons for its existence. (The most compelling patriotic case for union was made by the maverick George Galloway.)

In contrast, English patriotism is fairly strong, if proletarianised, and motivated partly by a sense of resentment over immigration, which is of far more concern to people than what happens beyond the Wall of Ice. If you’re from London or Birmingham and seen your country changed beyond recognition, whether it’s the Union Flag or St George’s Cross flying from the local council building makes little difference. South of the border, people have tended to see English and British as psychologically interchangeable anyway.

The good news for Scots unionists is that independence probably won’t make much difference to them either, if Ireland’s example is anything to go by. Ireland’s break from England was far more bitter – but today a majority of Brits don’t regard the Irish as foreigners and in every legal way the Irish are de facto British citizens, and an Irish accent is no impediment to almost any position in British society, except perhaps the Cabinet. What’s more, now that the countries are separate legal entities, Anglo-Irish relations have never been warmer. The Scots aren’t going to become foreigners just because of a vote.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

elsewhere, Labour is openly denouncing the idea of 'English votes for English laws'. Why does anyone in England vote labor? WHY?
2014 Sep 22 16:26
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Post: #27
RE: Scottish independence thread
When I heard about the results, I had to think of the ending of this (turn in at 2:19):





Big Grin

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2014 Sep 22 18:48
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Post: #28
RE: Scottish independence thread
(2014 Sep 19 19:43)Erwann Wrote:  There are 880.000 foreigners in Scotland (17% of the Scottish population) who were able to vote while the Scottish diaspora wasn't able to vote.

It seems wrong that foreigners were allowed to vote in this kind of election.

But it's okay by me that the Scottish diaspora wasn't able to vote, people who live abroad shouldn't interfere in what's going on in their native country.
2014 Sep 22 19:50
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Post: #29
RE: Scottish independence thread
(2014 Sep 22 19:50)Kristel Wrote:  people who live abroad shouldn't interfere in what's going on in their native country.

Oy vey!

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2014 Sep 22 20:50
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Post: #30
RE: Scottish independence thread
(2014 Sep 22 16:26)Xmia Wrote:  Y'gotta admit that would be pretty delicious - English giving Scotland independence, since they couldn't do it by themselves Tongue
I got carried away, yes. I should have been a little more Prussian about it, and disdained to "pick the glory of English independence from out of the gutter," if the shades of Wilhelm Friedrich Ludwig will permit me the paraphrase.

To have had a restored England founded more or less single-handedly by Mel Gibson would have been wrong.
Quote: Why does anyone in England vote labor? WHY?
The whole point of universal suffrage is to scupper the righteous political ambitions of the thinking part of the nation. ;)

Karl XII Wrote:It seems wrong that foreigners were allowed to vote in this kind of election.
Absolutely, but our rulers wouldn't dare open THAT can of worms! Pakistanis who run paedophile rings from cockroach ridden takeaways in Glasgow are obviously more deserving of a vote than some Ewen McBollocks who happens by chance to be working in England...
Quote:But it's okay by me that the Scottish diaspora wasn't able to vote, people who live abroad shouldn't interfere in what's going on in their native country.
I don't understand that, really. Especially in the case of countries where economic disparities mean that, at any given time, a good proportion if not a majority of natives of working age will be found abroad. Right of birth would make more sense, perhaps, rather than temporary residence. I don't know how many years they required you to have spent living there for this referendum, but I wouldn't like anything less than marriage to a native to permit such a thing myself, and maybe not even that.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2014 Sep 22 21:54
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