France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
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Aemma
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
(2015 Jan 16 01:20)Aramis Wrote:  
(2015 Jan 16 01:07)Aemma Wrote:  I'm not of Syrian extraction if you didn't know.

But thousands of Syrians flooding France and Germany are. And if Assad was were he had been 5 years ago, much could have been prevented.

Gaddafi is a more suitable person to evoke in regards to French foreign politics though.


So on the one hand Temnozor is telling me that France ought "to fix her internal problems". And on the other hand, you're telling me that there are thousands of Syrians in France and so this is the argument for France to not flex a little muscle and stand down a foreign aggressor (who might or might not even be Syrians)?

So Syrians are French now just because they live there? That's not exactly a logical argument coming from an ethno-nationalist.

So which one is it?

a) Are Syrians "French" now? Is it up to Hollande to come to Syria's defense when we all know (anyone that can read a map) that they aren't the same country, nor even the same people.

or

b) Are Syrians not French and therefore shouldn't really be *much* of the concern of the French government or its military? In so doing, it is one step towards "fixing its internal problems" such as not having everybody and his dog be "French" just because a bloody piece of paper says so.

By the way, the whole issue of fixing one's internal problems and everything else that goes along with it extends far beyond the borders of France. It's an EU problem made more and more horrible with each country added to it and their admission into the Schengen area.

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2015 Jan 16 02:00
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Aemma
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
Where'd your post go, Aramis? I saw it and I truly wanted to respond to it. sad

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2015 Jan 16 02:17
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Aramis
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
(2015 Jan 16 02:17)Aemma Wrote:  Where'd your post go, Aramis? I saw it and I truly wanted to respond to it. sad

lol, no idea. Respond to it if you remember what you were about to say

EDIT: Bosnians immigrants in Austria, the war, Syrians in France yada yada. Go!

Samo kurvi i konobaru pare ostavljam.
2015 Jan 16 02:20
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
Anyway, from what I remember having read, you had mentioned Bosnians living in Austria. Listen, I live in a country that's made up of not just English and French Canadians and First Nations peoples but a whole slew of other European peoples and now non-European peoples. I'm not insensitive to the plight of people who come from war-torn countries, believe me I'm not. And I do believe that for all that some of us talk about curbing immigration, I also fervently believe that we have some kind of a moral obligation to assist people when they are in need and to me that *does* extend to accepting them into your country to some degree, or rather, with some qualifiers. But I live in Canada and we might still have the luxury at this time to do such things, for the time being anyway.

Having said this, I don't believe that anything is owed to people who come into another's country, become dissatisfied with their host country and go off to join some foreign military outfit just to go back to the host country that has welcomed them and be ungrateful and well commit atrocious acts of barbaric violence. That's not any sense of decency at all.

Quite apart from what's occurring in Syria and everywhere else, I do believe that France has a right, if not an obligation, to her own people to accept some standard of civilised and respectful behaviour from those she accepts as her own, whether permanently or just temporarily.

Anyway...those are my thoughts about such things, wrong or right.

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2015 Jan 16 03:21
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
(2015 Jan 15 23:00)Aramis Wrote:  Love that logic.




"Either convert them or kill them: one or the other."

Phil Robertson (I believe he's the only one on that Duck Dynasty show that is legitimately a hilbilly) knows the Bible better than most clerics and he has the most obvious answer in dealing with ISIS: if you can't convert them away from their fanaticism then be prepared to kill them dead. Bible-believing rednecks may get dumped on alot but his solution is the obvious one: if you can't contain them then be prepared for war.

You goddamn communist heathen, you had best sound off that you love the Virgin Mary... or I'm gonna stomp your guts out!
2015 Jan 16 05:49
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Aramis
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
(2015 Jan 16 03:21)Aemma Wrote:  Anyway, from what I remember having read, you had mentioned Bosnians living in Austria. Listen, I live in a country that's made up of not just English and French Canadians and First Nations peoples but a whole slew of other European peoples and now non-European peoples. I'm not insensitive to the plight of people who come from war-torn countries, believe me I'm not. And I do believe that for all that some of us talk about curbing immigration, I also fervently believe that we have some kind of a moral obligation to assist people when they are in need and to me that *does* extend to accepting them into your country to some degree, or rather, with some qualifiers. But I live in Canada and we might still have the luxury at this time to do such things, for the time being anyway.

Having said this, I don't believe that anything is owed to people who come into another's country, become dissatisfied with their host country and go off to join some foreign military outfit just to go back to the host country that has welcomed them and be ungrateful and well commit atrocious acts of barbaric violence. That's not any sense of decency at all.

Quite apart from what's occurring in Syria and everywhere else, I do believe that France has a right, if not an obligation, to her own people to accept some standard of civilised and respectful behaviour from those she accepts as her own, whether permanently or just temporarily.

Anyway...those are my thoughts about such things, wrong or right.

The more "muscle flexing" (how you named it in your first post) the more such individuals in countries like France, the more the probability of looney muslims going on a killing spree.

If it wasn't for the progressive West, their native folks would had been speared thousands of Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis etc.

This discussion was already led tens of times here.

(2015 Jan 15 23:00)Aramis Wrote:  Phil Robertson (I believe he's the only one on that Duck Dynasty show that is legitimately a hilbilly) knows the Bible better than most clerics and he has the most obvious answer in dealing with ISIS: if you can't convert them away from their fanaticism then be prepared to kill them dead. Bible-believing rednecks may get dumped on alot but his solution is the obvious one: if you can't contain them then be prepared for war.

A take it or leave it choice on our native soil for immigrants is what's needed, yes. Aside the fact that he actually does talk about murder, which is not only unnecessary in most cases but also highly unlikely to happen.

I was not seeing him as a redneck for acting in accordance with the Bible in such a strict way, nor for his suggestion on how to deal with them as such; But implying another invasive war. Genius, really.
The moment where he rushes into the implementation of the second part of his tactics (as conversion obviously wouldn't work), even though he emphasized that "all who hate Me, love death" just a minute ago isn't his best moment either.

Samo kurvi i konobaru pare ostavljam.
2015 Jan 16 10:48
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Surtr Kvlt
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
Ah yea, proposing a religious or ideological crusade - just what worked for Bush and Blair. Tongue Just the kind of thing that has added fuel to the development of and proselytising of Salafi and takfiri ideology.

I don't really care that the West is taken action in bombing ISIS - but the situation has developed in part due to Western military action.

The home front is where action needs to be taken - and the sectarian shitfest should be left to wear itself out. I'm not going to get l indignant about bombing when ISIS are advancing on Yazidis and Kurds in their homelands though.

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2015 Jan 16 11:38
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
(2015 Jan 16 01:07)Aemma Wrote:  And what's your motivation for bringing up Assad into this conversation, of all people?

The OP article claims that France is sending this aircraft carrier to counter ISIS. Assad and the Syrian Army are the only ones currently fighting ISIS on the ground (I'm deliberately not counting Iraq or the Kurds), so supporting him would actually make a difference against ISIS (unlike the West's and France's current policies in the Middle East). It's a logical conclusion.

(2015 Jan 16 01:07)Aemma Wrote:  I honestly couldn't care less about Syria right now. I do however care about France and her future. Do you mind telling me how my concerns for France should be trumped by my concerns for Syria?

I'm not of Syrian extraction if you didn't know.

You appear to be concerned about France in the same way as Americans who supported the invasion of Iraq were after 9/11, though. It won't do much good.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2015 Jan 16 14:16
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
(2015 Jan 16 11:38)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  I don't really care that the West is taken action in bombing ISIS - but the situation has developed in part due to Western military action.

I don't dispute this part though; I never have.

Surtr Wrote:The home front is where action needs to be taken -

And yet again, people say this here all the time and I never quite get a straight answer in terms of what you think ought to be done exactly.

Are you suggesting that these Je suis Charlie marches are adequate? Because really they don't do a single thing.

Are you suggesting that getting more nationalist governments in power is the ultimate answer? It would help *perhaps*. But I know from experience that politicians end up getting elected on certain platforms only to back down due to whatever pressures (general public, lobby groups, expectations from allied countries, etc). It happens constantly. It happened in my own country numerous times--some to my benefit as a French Canadian though, I'll admit. For instance, Stephen Harper, our present Prime Minister, once upon a time, was a member of the Heritage Party: they were looking at abolishing all kinds of things in Canada, from the Senate to French language rights in some parts of my country. I can assure you that none of these things have happened. And for me, as a Traditionalist-monarchist French Canadian, not proceeding with all of that nonsense suited me just fine. And for the prime European example, there's Marine Le Pen: she certainly isn't her father is she. Not that her father could have ever gotten very far.

I honestly don't know what you young men expect from governments or from your own people really. There's a lot of rhetoric that goes around (on both sides) but it's just that rhetoric. Change occurs incrementally...unless of course we were in 18th century France or at present you live in Russia or the Middle East where volatility seems to still reign supreme. If outright revolutions are what you're looking for for certain European countries, I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. It's not going to happen and that for the mere reason that after WWII we all learned to "play nice" together and sublimate our energies regarding fighting for our differences in other ways.

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2015 Jan 16 16:12
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RE: France sends Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier for anti-ISIS op in Iraq
Aramis Wrote:The more "muscle flexing" (how you named it in your first post) the more such individuals in countries like France, the more the probability of looney muslims going on a killing spree.

"Muscle flexing" is a figure of speech. It can mean a whole lot of things, in this respect I meant it to mean having some kind of military presence even if they're just sitting there in a big boat. I didn't say they ought to be bombing them. I seem to remember that I specifically said up thread that I don't mean bombing them.

As for the "looney" Muslims, the problem most recently seems to stem from European countries allowing *known* people-of-questionable-motives to be flying around from country to country, going to Syria or Yemen "to visit" when it seems that they are going there for other purposes. It's ridiculous that these governments are allowing people to fly back and forth like that. Add to that that even native Europeans are converting to Islam, usually young politically and culturally disenfranchised unemployed men, and coming back totally radicalised and doing what they do best: expending ridiculous amounts of energy on destroying communities, culture, you-name-it. And you all think that by the ever-so evil West simply curbing its presence in certain parts of the world will fix all of this? I think that's very naive thinking.

Aramis Wrote:If it wasn't for the progressive West, their native folks would had been speared thousands of Syrians, Libyans, Iraqis etc.

And by "progressive West" you mean the USA I suppose? All I can say to that is that, you know, France, England, even modern-day Germany are as complicit in their own demise as anything else. It's ludicrous to pin everything that's wrong in the Western World on the USA.

It's how "the West" developed, Aramis. I'm sorry but that's how the universe sought for this part of human history on this planet to develop. I don't know why most of you here tend to go on crying over spilt milk. We can't go back in time. And I can assure you that any changes that will occur to rectify any of this is more than likely going to take as much time to resolve as it did for us to get where we are today.

Aramis Wrote:This discussion was already led tens of times here.

So? It's your thread, Aramis. If all you wanted was for people to post inane things such as "Oh look at the evil Empire; it's striking again! Yada-yada-yada...." (of which we have more than enough here by the way) then you should have put a disclaimer at the top saying that everybody BUT Aemma is permitted to post in this thread. Give me a blessed break.

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2015 Jan 16 16:43
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