Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
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Mustapaita
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RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 04:33)Aptrgangr Wrote:  You're a lucky guy if you have an army. I did not refer to the "don't ask, don't tell" issue, the integrity of "your" nation is endangered by those in charge, without sovereignty within, in domestic issues there won't be a national sovereignty in external matters. Or, to put it more simply, I am told the evil Russki is standing right in front of my door, what I see in reality is hordes from the Middle East and Africa welling in in record numbers.

My nation has both internal and external threats.

Quote:Why? It contradicts what you wrote before where you promoted national sovereigty, "home, hearth and fatherland", now you promote the opposite of all that, an army which no longer is under the command of national governments (parliamentary clause) but a supranational entity.

No it doesn't. In order to compete with China, US, Russia, etc, Europe needs a degree of unity and military projection. It would be within the interests of my country to be part of such a bloc as it gives us security guarantees. My home, hearth and fatherland won't disappear anywhere with the advent of a European army, it would be made more secure by it.

Quote:First of all, why are there mosques in your country anyway? If there were none, you would not think of that hypothetical scenario. The mere fact foreign invaders and their bases are established and freely spread here is the best argument against any government regulations as such. Gun control by a criminal organization named government is as acceptable as gun control maintained by the mafia or IS.

Thankfully, the government does regulate the inflow of people, mans the borders and deports illegals.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 14 12:29
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Post: #12
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 12:29)Mustapaita Wrote:  My nation has both internal and external threats.
Which threats are these?
(2015 Mar 14 12:29)Mustapaita Wrote:  No it doesn't. In order to compete with China, US, Russia, etc, Europe needs a degree of unity and military projection. It would be within the interests of my country to be part of such a bloc as it gives us security guarantees. My home, hearth and fatherland won't disappear anywhere with the advent of a European army, it would be made more secure by it.
Competing with powers that possess ballistic nuclear missiles is megalomania, have you ever checked the US military budget alone? Also, where do you get the idea from there were a political Europe with common interests? This is a pipe dream, as it is a pipe dream to think there would be any readiness to leave the NATO and challenge US hegemony.
(2015 Mar 14 12:29)Mustapaita Wrote:  Thankfully, the government does regulate the inflow of people, mans the borders and deports illegals.
So you admit you're just a subject that respects authority, no matter who exercises it? You are grateful they allow in Somalis "legally", but deport those coming "illegally"?

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
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“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 14 16:59
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RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 16:59)Aptrgangr Wrote:  
(2015 Mar 14 12:29)Mustapaita Wrote:  My nation has both internal and external threats.
Which threats are these?

Traitors and Russia.

Quote:Competing with powers that possess ballistic nuclear missiles is megalomania, have you ever checked the US military budget alone? Also, where do you get the idea from there were a political Europe with common interests? This is a pipe dream, as it is a pipe dream to think there would be any readiness to leave the NATO and challenge US hegemony.

I did not mean competing in a strictly military sense. Doesn't UK and France possess nuclear missiles?

A European bloc would give Europeans a voice globally. What's so terrible about that?

Quote:So you admit you're just a subject that respects authority, no matter who exercises it? You are grateful they allow in Somalis "legally", but deport those coming "illegally"?

I admit no such thing.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 14 17:16
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Aemma
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Post: #14
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Nationalism aside, if one compares military defense via supranationalist and pseudo-supranationalist entities, namely an EU military vs. NATO, I would think it rather logical for any European nationalist to prefer the least amount of non-European influence in this sphere which would preclude NATO from being the preferred choice were Europeans actually given realistic choices.

It's not a bad idea in theory for the EU to assert some kind of continental sovereignty via a military body, one not reliant upon external factions that have no real *modern* stake in the matter.

I dunno. If I were European I'd seriously consider backing such a strategy for the very reason of making clear to the rest of the world that Europe *as a bloc* has every right to take care of her own business without outside interference. Whether this is remotely doable however is entirely another matter.

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2015 Mar 14 18:18
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Post: #15
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 17:16)Mustapaita Wrote:  Traitors and Russia.
Treason is a matter of perspective, and the Russian threat does not look plausible.
(2015 Mar 14 17:16)Mustapaita Wrote:  I did not mean competing in a strictly military sense. Doesn't UK and France possess nuclear missiles?
A "European army" certainly can't be limited to a strictly military sense, if there is no readiness (and possibility) to maintain it, it will remain a pipe dream anyway. Neither UK nor France are ready to internationalize their nuclear arsenals, in order to create a real deterrent an own massive nuclear armament build up would be necessary. The crux is vegan hipsters with a degree in social studies aka Europeans neither are supportive of any military build up, nor are they ready to fund a nuclear arsenal, they are perfectly fine with the US hegemony as it is right now.
(2015 Mar 14 17:16)Mustapaita Wrote:  A European bloc would give Europeans a voice globally. What's so terrible about that?
I do not know what would be terrible about it, it is just unrealistic to assume Portugal, Austria, Greece and Finland had common interests beyond custom-free trade and travel.
(2015 Mar 14 17:16)Mustapaita Wrote:  I admit no such thing.
But it sounds exactly like that.

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 14 18:26
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RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 18:26)Aptrgangr Wrote:  Treason is a matter of perspective, and the Russian threat does not look plausible.

Nonetheless, threats.

Quote:A "European army" certainly can't be limited to a strictly military sense, if there is no readiness (and possibility) to maintain it, it will remain a pipe dream anyway. Neither UK nor France are ready to internationalize their nuclear arsenals, in order to create a real deterrent an own massive nuclear armament build up would be necessary. The crux is vegan hipsters with a degree in social studies aka Europeans neither are supportive of any military build up, nor are they ready to fund a nuclear arsenal, they are perfectly fine with the US hegemony as it is right now.

Hence, "in theory".

Quote:I do not know what would be terrible about it, it is just unrealistic to assume Portugal, Austria, Greece and Finland had common interests beyond custom-free trade and travel.

Policing the Mediterranean, keeping up a credible military to counter potential threats, giving Europeans global clout instead of remaining American lapdogs.

Quote:But it sounds exactly like that.

So me being happy that Finland has border control sounds like I'm happy with all rulers, any rulers. This interpretation, I think, is more about your reading comprehension what I actually said.

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2015 Mar 14 18:33
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Post: #17
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 18:33)Mustapaita Wrote:  Nonetheless, threats.
Not every perceived thread turned out to be real.

(2015 Mar 14 18:33)Mustapaita Wrote:  Hence, "in theory".
Irrational theories are more often implemented into practice than not.

(2015 Mar 14 18:33)Mustapaita Wrote:  Policing the Mediterranean,
What for? We are told borders just were imaginary lines and everybody is welcome, as long as it is like that people from all over the world will flood in in masses.

(2015 Mar 14 18:33)Mustapaita Wrote:  keeping up a credible military to counter potential threats,
You simply can't imagine a huge army commanded by a reckless elite rather is a threat to someone, including ourselves?

(2015 Mar 14 18:33)Mustapaita Wrote:  giving Europeans global clout instead of remaining American lapdogs.
It seems you delude yourself about what the EU actually is, it is an organization under US hegemony, it does not have the merest perspective to develope into anything else. Americans are much more honest about that, for them it does not matter whether there is one big EU army or many small ones, the troops are seen as a self funding foreign legion serving US hegemonial interests.

(2015 Mar 14 18:33)Mustapaita Wrote:  So me being happy that Finland has border control sounds like I'm happy with all rulers, any rulers. This interpretation, I think, is more about your reading comprehension what I actually said.
That's not what I said, I said why would someone make a distinction between "legal" and "illegal" Somalis in Finland (or anywhere else in Europe.)
The basic problem is they are settled here, not their amount and "legal" status.

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 14 19:01
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Post: #18
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Speaking in terms of realpolitik, an "EU Army" would bring little change but on an organizational level. Most EU countries are already part of NATO and those who are not are free to join, in case they think that belonging to a military block would increase their national security. An "EU Army", however, would by no means be less integrated into the hegemonical mechanisms of the USA than the individual European armies are already, neither would the EU stop being America's lapdog. In order to achieve a stronger global presence as an independent block, the only way for Europe is to break the ties between its own and America's elites, nothing short of it. "Reforms" of any sorts without doing that are nothing but superficial.

At present, the only real implications of forming an "EU Army" are a higher level of integration within Europe, a higher level of centralized control from Brussels, and thus a further step towards the dissolution of nation states within Europe.

Edit: I see now that I've echoed Aptrgangr in a few points here, but I've written this post before I saw his. So, no copyright infringement I hope.

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2015 Mar 14 19:11
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Post: #19
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 12:29)Mustapaita Wrote:  It would be within the interests of my country to be part of such a bloc as it gives us security guarantees.

I always thought your country a prime example of how to benefit on neutrality and independence.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2015 Mar 14 19:17
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Post: #20
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Quote: Not every perceived thread turned out to be real.

You're the one going on about traitorous elites. Now they're imaginary when I mention them?

Quote:What for? We are told borders just were imaginary lines and everybody is welcome, as long as it is like that people from all over the world will flood in in masses.

Its still in the common interest of Europeans despite what we're told.

Quote: You simply can't imagine a huge army commanded by a reckless elite rather is a threat to someone, including ourselves?

Easily. Can't you imagine an army that would actually serve our security needs?

Quote:It seems you delude yourself about what the EU actually is, it is an organization under US hegemony, it does not have the merest perspective to develope into anything else. Americans are much more honest about that, for them it does not matter whether there is one big EU army or many small ones, the troops are seen as a self funding foreign legion serving US hegemonial interests.

No, I'm envisioning alternatives.

Quote:That's not what I said, I said why would someone make a distinction between "legal" and "illegal" Somalis in Finland (or anywhere else in Europe.)
The basic problem is they are settled here, not their amount and "legal" status.

Ok, fine, so me being happy with deported illegals and policed borders makes me a lapdog of the establishment. Still quite a leap of logic there, mate.

Quote: I always thought your country a prime example of how to benefit on neutrality and independence.

Ever heard of the Winter War? 1. Neutrality 2. War 3. ??? 4. Profit.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 14 19:24
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