Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Author Message
Temnozor
Offline
Kornilov did nothing wrong
Supervision



Россия

Posts: 2.563
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #21
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 19:24)Mustapaita Wrote:  Ever heard of the Winter War? 1. Neutrality 2. War 3. ??? 4. Profit.

Yeah, well, Stalin is dead now since quite a while and the war objectives have been largely achieved for Russia at that time already. Unless you have two Karelias. Remember, Stalin attacked you for the same reason as Peter the Great thought it important to have Finnland - St. Petersburg is in a very vulnerable position if there is no hinterland to the North. But that's off the table now and Russia has little security interests concerning present day Finnland, other than keeping it out of NATO. Unless you want to imply that Russia is clay hungry for no reason and would attack you at the first chance at hand.

Personally, I was thinking more of Kekkonen than about the Winter War.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

[Image: ecc9v9ru.jpg]
2015 Mar 14 19:29
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Aptrgangr
Online
Nulla crux, nulla corona
Supervision



Deutschland

Posts: 2.745
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 617
Post: #22
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 19:24)Mustapaita Wrote:  You're the one going on about traitorous elites. Now they're imaginary when I mention them?
I am just wondering about your zig-zag course about them, I fundamentally reject any policy promoted by those elites, not just some selected points.

(2015 Mar 14 19:24)Mustapaita Wrote:  Its still in the common interest of Europeans despite what we're told.
We are told these common interests would exist without any evidence proving this really is the case.

(2015 Mar 14 19:24)Mustapaita Wrote:  Easily. Can't you imagine an army that would actually serve our security needs?
Not under the condition I am banned from taking care of my own security.

(2015 Mar 14 19:24)Mustapaita Wrote:  No, I'm envisioning alternatives.
What would change in your life if your alternative became real - in theory?

(2015 Mar 14 19:24)Mustapaita Wrote:  Ok, fine, so me being happy with deported illegals and policed borders makes me a lapdog of the establishment. Still quite a leap of logic there, mate.
Your incoherence and self contadictions are the biggest roadblock for a logic approach here. The label "legal" and "illegal" is arbitrary, who is going to decide about that? It's exactly the same ppl letting in masses of foreigners, creating special privileges for them and paying them welfare with your tax money. You actually should be ooutraged by the fact each Abdul and Mbubu on dole prevents you from getting more Leopard 2A6 tanks...

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 14 19:54
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Surtr Kvlt
Offline
Wulfes-heafod



England

Posts: 845
Joined: Nov 2014
Reputation: 155
Post: #23
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Yeah man can't be somewhat happy with border control keeping some of the worst out (in theory) because you want no Somalis. There is only black and white. Supreme logic.

[Image: GOd9PCN.gif]

(2015 Mar 14 19:54)Aptrgangr Wrote:  I am just wondering about your zig-zag course about them, I fundamentally reject any policy promoted by those elites, not just some selected points.

Bad people think its good therefore bad. Common sense. Guns for everyone.

totalitARYAN
2015 Mar 14 20:07
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Surtr Kvlt's post:
Aramis (17-03-2015)
Aptrgangr
Online
Nulla crux, nulla corona
Supervision



Deutschland

Posts: 2.745
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 617
Post: #24
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 20:07)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  Yeah man can't be somewhat happy with border control keeping some of the worst out (in theory) because you want no Somalis. There is only black and white. Supreme logic.
Logic does not mean accepting two mutually exclusive concepts as valid, the right term would be e.g. schizophrenia.
Basically you're saying one has to be grateful to burglars if they leave the table and a chair behind after having robbed empty your flat. And I just rejected relativism like this, I stick with the original concept of law which does not distinguish between "legal" and "illegal" robbery. Call it black and white.

(2015 Mar 14 20:07)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  http://i.imgur.com/GOd9PCN.gif
Nice fedora you have there

(2015 Mar 14 20:07)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  Bad people think its good therefore bad.
I never argued like that. I just said the idea a satrap like today's Germany would break loose from its hegemonial master is ridiculous, one reason why Germany is economically successful is the fact it does not have to pay for and maintain a huge military arsenal - which would be totally different if there no longer were a powerful USA protecting it and the dreams of a European Empire became true.





(2015 Mar 14 20:07)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  Common sense. Guns for everyone.
Let's better have nukes for governments covering child rapists and Paki gangs and all will be fine.

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 14 20:53
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Aptrgangr's post:
Temnozor (14-03-2015)
Blackthorne
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.543
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 342
Post: #25
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
“A standing military force, with an overgrown Executive will not long be safe companions to liberty. The means of defense against foreign danger, have been always the instruments of tyranny at home. Among the Romans it was a standing maxim to excite a war, whenever a revolt was apprehended. Throughout all Europe, the armies kept up under the pretext of defending, have enslaved the people.”

~ James Madison

Look at the mischief that the U.S. has caused in the name of freedom (like the British Empire before it) with a large standing military. I'd be happy for my country to have a small professional military supplemented by national guard units, state militias (which are distinct from the national guard and not every state has one), etc.

Be careful what you wish for. Hmm...

You goddamn communist heathen, you had best sound off that you love the Virgin Mary... or I'm gonna stomp your guts out!
2015 Mar 14 20:56
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 3 users Like Blackthorne's post:
Aptrgangr (14-03-2015), Osweo (14-03-2015), Temnozor (14-03-2015)
Surtr Kvlt
Offline
Wulfes-heafod



England

Posts: 845
Joined: Nov 2014
Reputation: 155
Post: #26
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 20:53)Aptrgangr Wrote:  Logic does not mean accepting two mutually exclusive concepts as valid, the right term would be e.g. schizophrenia.
What you are talking about is cognitive dissonance. Surely you should know that considering you where waffling on about Orwellian doublethink earlier.

But what is mutually exclusive?

Not supporting a current government but being in agreement on certain things, regardless of how watered down a measure it is, impossible? Bollocks!

Quote:Basically you're saying one has to be grateful to burglars if they leave the table and a chair behind after having robbed empty your flat. And I just rejected relativism like this, I stick with the original concept of law which does not distinguish between "legal" and "illegal" robbery. Call it black and white.

Shite analogy but whatever. Let's start with the strawman sneaking in there. I didn't say anything about being grateful to anybody.

If somebody robbed my house and left something, I'd be happy that something is still there. I wouldn't thank the burglar. I wouldn't want them to not leave things, the more they left the better, hell if they fucked off without anything or didn't break in for a start would be great. I would't throw it away or give it away to the burglar because they didn't want to take it.

What court is this anyway? The Aptrgangr Court during a trial of the elites for "robbery"?

Since you like bad analogies, here is one. Immigration through the proper protocols, with consent, is legal. Therefore, according to you, all other immigration should be legal. Sex with consent is legal. With your "original concept of law" that must mean non-consensual sex should be legal. And since you are fine with constructing men out of straw: YOU COOL WITH RAPE BRO?!??!

The "elites" get to decide? Regardless, whether you believe liberal democracy means at least some of the public concerns and views are taken into account or not, you can still be happy about certain functions of the current state without supporting it.

Quote:I never argued like that.

Ok, I inferred it from what you said here:
(2015 Mar 14 19:54)Aptrgangr Wrote:  I am just wondering about your zig-zag course about them, I fundamentally reject any policy promoted by those elites, not just some selected points.

Maybe you happen to reject everything that is in the policy of or promoted by "big bad elites" purely by coincidence...

Quote:Let's better have nukes for governments covering child rapists and Paki gangs and all will be fine.

Yeah because that is what I'm arguing for... in the current reality of UK society I would not want to see every Tom, Dick and Ahmad with easy access to arms. I don't live in some fantasy world where I think I can draw a weapon and down the bad guys every time. I don't live on the American frontier. And thankfully "Libertarian" fruitcakes are still a minority so its not going to happen, the only sorts to really support such ideas here. Other than the BNP and their support of Tony Martin, presumably because he shot a traveller in the back as they fled empty handed from a burglary. Even though he was a cunt with a history of using firearms to threaten people.

totalitARYAN
2015 Mar 15 00:03
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Phlegethon
Online
Factionist of the forlorn



Deutschland

Posts: 5.282
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #27
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
They call it European Army, I call it System Shock Forces against outfits like Pegida, Hogesa etc. That outfit wouldn't stand a chance against real ballistic attacks from abroad anyways, and as most armies consist of system mercenaries these days the protesting folks in the streets have to fear them more than any obscure and vague enemy without.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2015 Mar 15 01:08
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Phlegethon's post:
Osweo (15-03-2015)
Mustapaita
Online
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.904
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 809
Post: #28
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 14 19:54)Aptrgangr Wrote:  I am just wondering about your zig-zag course about them, I fundamentally reject any policy promoted by those elites, not just some selected points.

Where did I say I support current elites? I haven't. So this is just what you've inferred between the lines due to your own disposition. I don't promote the current elite. But I still think a European army is in theory a good idea.

Quote:We are told these common interests would exist without any evidence proving this really is the case.

...? What does this mean?
Quote:Not under the condition I am banned from taking care of my own security.

Did I mention conditions? This conversation would be better if you replied to me and not your imaginary friends.

Quote:What would change in your life if your alternative became real - in theory?
...? What does this mean?

Quote:Your incoherence and self contadictions are the biggest roadblock for a logic approach here. The label "legal" and "illegal" is arbitrary, who is going to decide about that? It's exactly the same ppl letting in masses of foreigners, creating special privileges for them and paying them welfare with your tax money. You actually should be ooutraged by the fact each Abdul and Mbubu on dole prevents you from getting more Leopard 2A6 tanks...

Why do you make an issue of legal and illegal when they're commonly accepted labels? Is it my fault that this is the case? Am I wrong to be glad that there's at least some control over who's coming here? Compared to Germany, we're in a happy place concerining immigration. And its due to our politics.

And why do you think I'm not mad about Abdi and Hassan getting dole? Why don't you just read what I say and stop reading "between the lines"?

You reply to my posts but you take weird detours and don't discuss what I said, but rather what you think or imagine or hallucinate I said. Enough. This is useless.

Quote:Yeah, well, Stalin is dead now since quite a while and the war objectives have been largely achieved for Russia at that time already. Unless you have two Karelias. Remember, Stalin attacked you for the same reason as Peter the Great thought it important to have Finnland - St. Petersburg is in a very vulnerable position if there is no hinterland to the North. But that's off the table now and Russia has little security interests concerning present day Finnland, other than keeping it out of NATO. Unless you want to imply that Russia is clay hungry for no reason and would attack you at the first chance at hand.

Personally, I was thinking more of Kekkonen than about the Winter War.

We have two Karelias - and they're both in Russia. ;)

Russia is the only external threat we have and Putin has shown that he's willing to do stupid things. Army, now.

Kekkonen was basically a careerist who stayed in power because of his relations to USSR. Do you think we were happy during "finnlandisierung"? Kekkonen & USSR made Finland into a quasi-dicatorship, which was tolerated because the alternatives were all worse.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 15 01:27
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Mustapaita's post:
Kat (17-03-2015)
Aptrgangr
Online
Nulla crux, nulla corona
Supervision



Deutschland

Posts: 2.745
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 617
Post: #29
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  What you are talking about is cognitive dissonance. Surely you should know that considering you where waffling on about Orwellian doublethink earlier.
...which is schizophrenic too.
(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  But what is mutually exclusive?

Not supporting a current government but being in agreement on certain things, regardless of how watered down a measure it is, impossible? Bollocks!
So we simply surrender our sovereignty, shut up and pay taxes, and all is well. If you like wishy-washy regime loyalism, it is your thing, but don't expect it from others.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  Shite analogy but whatever. Let's start with the strawman sneaking in there. I didn't say anything about being grateful to anybody.
You just fail to see the analogy, the regimes usurping power under no circumstance don't have a right to decide which Somalis are to be let in, and which not. They actions are based on arrogance of power, not legality.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  If somebody robbed my house and left something, I'd be happy that something is still there. I wouldn't thank the burglar. I wouldn't want them to not leave things, the more they left the better, hell if they fucked off without anything or didn't break in for a start would be great. I would't throw it away or give it away to the burglar because they didn't want to take it.
Yould you negotiate with the burglar and beg him to return your property?

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  What court is this anyway? The Aptrgangr Court during a trial of the elites for "robbery"?
I have no power and only care for more own business.
(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  Since you like bad analogies, here is one. Immigration through the proper protocols, with consent, is legal. Therefore, according to you, all other immigration should be legal. Sex with consent is legal. With your "original concept of law" that must mean non-consensual sex should be legal. And since you are fine with constructing men out of straw: YOU COOL WITH RAPE BRO?!??!
I never said things that are wrong suddenly can be legal just because someone privately thinks they were legal. Those letting in all the refugees never asked whether the native populations wish to have them, not only that, they oppress any opposing opinions, like they also oppress those calling for harsher punishment for rapists, calling them backwards and what not. So far relativism was not my thing, I have no idea why you blame me for that...

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  The "elites" get to decide? Regardless, whether you believe liberal democracy means at least some of the public concerns and views are taken into account or not, you can still be happy about certain functions of the current state without supporting it.
I never said some public concerns are taken into account, just no dissident ones.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  
Quote:I never argued like that.

Ok, I inferred it from what you said here:
(2015 Mar 14 19:54)Aptrgangr Wrote:  I am just wondering about your zig-zag course about them, I fundamentally reject any policy promoted by those elites, not just some selected points.

Maybe you happen to reject everything that is in the policy of or promoted by "big bad elites" purely by coincidence...
I do not only loath the elites, but meek regime loyalists like yourself that are happy to get some breadcrumbs every then and now.
I see no reason to cooperate with any institution or group of people that vowed to remain loyal to an illigetimate regime. More and more cops but also judges in the FRG whine about the pure hatred they more and more are confronted with, I find this is a good sign and fueling this hatred is a good propagandistic method in order to delegitimize the current regime.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  Yeah because that is what I'm arguing for...
Yes, you are. You either make decisions based on own sovereignty, or not. You chose not to, or, let's put it more accurately, it is fine for you others that are responsible for that mess solving it, whereas my position is perpetrators and their collaborating forces never may be in the position to judge over others.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  in the current reality of UK society I would not want to see every Tom, Dick and Ahmad with easy access to arms.
This is your personal opinion, which, what a coincidence, is the same as the one of the ruling caste. The little problem here is arms possession and the right of self defense are natural laws which legally can not be limited by governments.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  I don't live in some fantasy world where I think I can draw a weapon and down the bad guys every time.
You live in the real world where the bad guys don't give a damn about whether you or anyone else thinks they may possess arms or not and gun down people anytime it serves their interests.

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  I don't live on the American frontier.
What does this have to do with America?

(2015 Mar 15 00:03)Surtr Kvlt Wrote:  And thankfully "Libertarian" fruitcakes are still a minority so its not going to happen, the only sorts to really support such ideas here. Other than the BNP and their support of Tony Martin, presumably because he shot a traveller in the back as they fled empty handed from a burglary. Even though he was a cunt with a history of using firearms to threaten people.
Why don't you rather look to Switzerland, where anyone who wants can have any gun he wants, having one of the lowest gun crimes? Or Germany, which is also has one of the highest rates of fire arm possession per capita, also with a relatively low indigenous crime rate. Disarming innocents never prevented a crime.
You guys babble too much about big armies and armies, but want all this without personal liberties and sovereignty. Nay thanks.

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 15 01:30
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Phlegethon
Online
Factionist of the forlorn



Deutschland

Posts: 5.282
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #30
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Pourquoi mourir pour Helsinki? ;)


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2015 Mar 15 01:50
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Phlegethon's post:
Aptrgangr (15-03-2015)


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)