Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Author Message
Aptrgangr
Online
Nulla crux, nulla corona
Supervision



Deutschland

Posts: 2.742
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 616
Post: #31
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  Where did I say I support current elites? I haven't. So this is just what you've inferred between the lines due to your own disposition. I don't promote the current elite.
Abdigadir Osman Hussein
-Born in 1974, Somalia
-Moved to Finland in 1990 as a refugee
-Was sentenced in 1993 the first time for violently raping a 13 years old girl.
-He was let free in 1995 and two months after he murdered very cruely a 15 years old girl.
-He was let out for some hours in 2005 and few hour after he raped a 4 years old girl

This is what I fundamentally reject and not just partially oppose, under some circumstances - mind you he is a "legal" refugee...

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  But I still think a European army is in theory a good idea.

Living near Frankfurt/M I say you sooner will defend your home and hearth from your Albanian comrades rather than fighting side by side with them against the Russian bear...

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  ...? What does this mean?

Ok, let me rephrase it. What are these "common European interests". Name some.

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  Did I mention conditions? This conversation would be better if you replied to me and not your imaginary friends.

Why would someone promote external sovereignty without inner sovereignty? Only tyrannies do that.
Why can't we have guns "legally" except when given by us by the government in order to fight some external enemy? Don't you think this is a bit fishy?

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  ...? What does this mean?

Tell me what you concretely hope this army would do for you.

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  Why do you make an issue of legal and illegal when they're commonly accepted labels? Is it my fault that this is the case? Am I wrong to be glad that there's at least some control over who's coming here? Compared to Germany, we're in a happy place concerining immigration. And its due to our politics.

Something wrong remains wrong, even if it is commonly accepted. If you are glad about these things it is fine with me, I am not interested in minor corrections but a regime change (of course not for Finland, I am not concerned about how you organize yourself).

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  And why do you think I'm not mad about Abdi and Hassan getting dole? Why don't you just read what I say and stop reading "between the lines"?

So you are suddenly mad about things your government legally decided...

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  You reply to my posts but you take weird detours and don't discuss what I said, but rather what you think or imagine or hallucinate I said. Enough. This is useless.

The one causing chaos here is you, I just made clear any further concentration of power is dangerous.

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 15 02:01
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Aptrgangr
Online
Nulla crux, nulla corona
Supervision



Deutschland

Posts: 2.742
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 616
Post: #32
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 01:50)Phlegethon Wrote:  Pourquoi mourir pour Helsinki? ;)

Travailler pour le roi de Prusse...

"The secret to happiness is freedom... And the secret to freedom is courage."
Thucydides

“My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.” Carl Schurz

"Both oligarch and tyrant mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
Aristotle

"Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must." Thucydides
2015 Mar 15 02:10
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Phlegethon
Offline
Factionist of the forlorn



Deutschland

Posts: 5.281
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #33
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
A Prussian king would be more successful in forging a European army than Juncker, methinks. But things went downhill long ago and now we have the cheap Hollywood version of politicians instead of statesmen. And this being so the concept of global mercenarism instead of some multinational standing armies to defend the interests of multinational corporations become more and more reasonable and appealing.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2015 Mar 15 02:37
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Mustapaita
Online
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.898
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 809
Post: #34
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
Regime change, one asinine post at a time. That's not a pipedream. ;)

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 15 13:26
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Surtr Kvlt
Offline
Wulfes-heafod



England

Posts: 844
Joined: Nov 2014
Reputation: 155
Post: #35
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 13:26)Mustapaita Wrote:  Regime change, one asinine post at a time. That's not a pipedream. ;)

Don't ruin my dream, man.

totalitARYAN
2015 Mar 15 13:58
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Temnozor
Offline
Kornilov did nothing wrong
Supervision



Россия

Posts: 2.562
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #36
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  We have two Karelias - and they're both in Russia. ;)

I want more Karelias. Gibe third one! We know you are hiding it somewhere! sad

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  Russia is the only external threat we have and Putin has shown that he's willing to do stupid things. Army, now.

Yeah, hm, geopolitically that makes sense, logically it doesn't. Putin hasn't done anything stupid, everything is rather well calculated. Russia is a threat to Finnland only in the sense that it's the only big and potentially dangerous country at its borders. But probably you would care to name a few points why Russia might want to attack you? I can name points why it wouldn't:

- If Russia had any territorial interests in Finnland, it could have had attacked it in Soviet times already. Finnland was neutral back then as well, so the security situation was about the same, only that Russia was much stronger and more influantial. Instead, Finnland's neutrality has always been respected (post Winter War) and mutual trade was quite pronounced.

- Russia could justify its interventions in Georgia and Ukraine to its own population, but noone would accept a war against Finnland. You have by all means little to do with Russia's post-Soviet sphere of interests, so to speak.

- Finnland, although it couldn't "defeat" Russia alone, has a pretty strong army and difficult terrain on its own. Any conflict would bring heavy losses that neither the Russian government nor the population would potentially be willing to take.

- Finnland, although not in any military alliance, would still have a powerful international backing, most likely even militarilly.

On the other hand, though, if you'd be part of a greater military block which Russia considers a threat to itself, you would be instantly on Moscow's radar. Just like Ukraine. I really can't see how neutrality isn't the most beneficial state for your country. Perhaps, I'm just not prone enough to fear-mongering.

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  Kekkonen was basically a careerist who stayed in power because of his relations to USSR. Do you think we were happy during "finnlandisierung"? Kekkonen & USSR made Finland into a quasi-dicatorship, which was tolerated because the alternatives were all worse.

And still he did better than your current, totally hip and democratically elected government. Also, finnlandisierung was just a stupid buzzword invented by Western German NATO shills who have even rejected the reunification of their own country on terms of neutrality (in 1952).

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

[Image: ecc9v9ru.jpg]
2015 Mar 15 14:41
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Temnozor's post:
Aptrgangr (17-03-2015)
Mustapaita
Online
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.898
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 809
Post: #37
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 14:41)Temnozor Wrote:  
(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  We have two Karelias - and they're both in Russia. ;)

I want more Karelias. Gibe third one! New know you are hiding it somewhere! sad

(2015 Mar 15 01:27)Mustapaita Wrote:  Russia is the only external threat we have and Putin has shown that he's willing to do stupid things. Army, now.

Yeah, hm, geopolitically that makes sense, logically it doesn't. Putin hasn't done anything stupid, everything is rather well calculated. Russia is a threat to Finnland only in the sense that it's the only big and potentially dangerous country at its borders. But probably you would care to name a few points why Russia might want to attack you? I can name points why it wouldn't:

- If Russia had any territorial interests in Finnland, it could have had attacked it in Soviet times already. Finnland was neutral back then as well, so the security situation was about the same, only that Russia was much stronger and more influantial. Instead, Finnland's neutrality has always been respected (post Winter War) and mutual trade was quite pronounced.

- Russia could justify its interventions in Georgia and Ukraine to its own population, but noone would accept a war against Finnland. You have by all means little to do with Russia's post-Soviet sphere of interests, so to speak.

- Finnland, although it couldn't "defeat" Russia alone, has a pretty strong army and difficult terrain on its own. Any conflict would bring heavy loses that neither the Russian government nor the population would potentially be willing to take.

- Finnland, although not in any military alliance, would still have a powerful international backing, most likely even militarilly.

On the other hand, though, if you'd be part of a greater military block which Russia considers a threat to itself, you would be instantly on Moscow's radar. Just like Ukraine. I really can't see how neutrality isn't the most beneficial state for your country. Perhaps, I'm just not prone enough to fear-mongering.

These things don't occur in a vaccuum. I don't expect Russia is itching to invade but in the event of a regional conflict we would be sucked in like last time. Besides, I don't want a European army to counter only Russia, I want a European army to give Europe independence from USA. If Europeans won't defend themselves they won't rule themselves either. Personally I'd like to see a rapproachment between Russia and Europe but if Russia's post-imperial hang ups make it hostile then so be it. If it was just about Russia I'd be for NATO-membership. I'm not.

Quote:And still he did better than your current, totally hip and democratically elected government. Also, finnlandisierung was just a stupid buzzword invented by Western German NATO shills who have even rejected the reunification of their own country on terms of neutrality (in 1952).

What did he do better? Sure, the current government was a fiasco but Centre Partists aren't protesting on the squares holding up UKK portraits and singing nostalgic songs. People are happy those times are over. Buzzword or no, people here felt it and know what it was.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 15 14:50
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Mustapaita's post:
Kat (17-03-2015)
Temnozor
Offline
Kornilov did nothing wrong
Supervision



Россия

Posts: 2.562
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 641
Post: #38
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 14:50)Mustapaita Wrote:  These things don't occur in a vaccuum. I don't expect Russia is itching to invade but in the event of a regional conflict we would be sucked in like last time. Besides, I don't want a European army to counter only Russia, I want a European army to give Europe independence from USA. If Europeans won't defend themselves they won't rule themselves either. Personally I'd like to see a rapproachment between Russia and Europe but if Russia's post-imperial hang ups make it hostile then so be it. If it was just about Russia I'd be for NATO-membership. I'm not.

"Europe becoming independent from the US" is a pretty long way to go. We can discuss that in the same manner as manned North Korean missions on Mars, for all I care. The suggestion at hand is Juncker's politically correct, Brussels controlled gay rights protection brigade, which I would reject.

(2015 Mar 15 14:50)Mustapaita Wrote:  What did he do better?

Welp, for all I remember, Finnland was an industrialized country without mass immigration and gay marriage. Would rather live there than in today's Finnland, although yes, those points actually shouldn't be attributed to Kekkonen himself - most European countries used to be like this. But I was comparing with your current government, so ...

As for what I would really attribute to Kekkonen are for example the good trade relations with the West as well as with the Warsaw Pact, which Finnland greatly benefitted from.

(2015 Mar 15 14:50)Mustapaita Wrote:  Sure, the current government was a fiasco but Centre Partists aren't protesting on the squares holding up UKK portraits and singing nostalgic songs. People are happy those times are over. Buzzword or no, people here felt it and know what it was.

Meh, okay, I can't judge here, I'm not a Finn (or only crypto-Finn at best).

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

[Image: ecc9v9ru.jpg]
2015 Mar 15 15:12
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Mustapaita
Online
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.898
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 809
Post: #39
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 15:12)Temnozor Wrote:  
(2015 Mar 15 14:50)Mustapaita Wrote:  These things don't occur in a vaccuum. I don't expect Russia is itching to invade but in the event of a regional conflict we would be sucked in like last time. Besides, I don't want a European army to counter only Russia, I want a European army to give Europe independence from USA. If Europeans won't defend themselves they won't rule themselves either. Personally I'd like to see a rapproachment between Russia and Europe but if Russia's post-imperial hang ups make it hostile then so be it. If it was just about Russia I'd be for NATO-membership. I'm not.

"Europe becoming independent from the US" is a pretty long way to go. We can discuss that in the same manner as manned North Korean missions on Mars, for all I care. The suggestion at hand is Juncker's politically correct, Brussels controlled gay rights protection brigade, which I would reject.

As would I.

Quote:Welp, for all I remember Finnland was an industrialized country without mass immigration and gay marriage. Would rather live there than in today's Finnland, although yes, those points actually shouldn't be attributed to Kekkonen himself - most European countries used to be like this. But I was comparing with your current government, so ...

As for what I would really attribute to Kekkonen are for example the good trade relations with the West as well as with the Warsaw Pact, which Finnland greatly benefitted from.

We are in a happier place now that there is no Warsaw Pact. I concede Kekkonen was a statesman of a different calibre compared to the current generation of political broilers.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Mar 15 15:21
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Mustapaita's post:
Kat (17-03-2015)
W. R.
Offline
cannibalish chauvinist



Беларусь

Posts: 1.570
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 508
Post: #40
RE: Jean-Claude Juncker calls for EU army
(2015 Mar 15 14:41)Temnozor Wrote:  I really can't see how neutrality isn't the most beneficial state for your country.

I know a country that used to be neutral but changed its mind after losing Crimea.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

[Image: now.jpg]
2015 Mar 15 15:27
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 2 users Like W. R.'s post:
Kat (17-03-2015), Mustapaita (15-03-2015)


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 2 Guest(s)