What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
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Albion
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What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Did they gradually become assimilated into the Slavs? What was the process like? How did Slavs come to dominate the area?
2015 Jun 09 06:56
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Osweo
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
They're still there, in pockets here and there. They were never very numerous in the first place, though, which was their problem when the Slavs started coming in. Obviously, a Russian state system presented people with a lot of reasons to assimilate, and so at least three entire ethnic groups of Finnic speakers have assimilated totally - the Merya, Murom, and Zavolochskie Chud (though the latter were probably just a type of Veps). These were the groups whose geography meant assimilation was most likely, due to being on the main thoroughfares and so on.

Areas that were assimilated early on often have an interesting feature in how they pronounce certain sounds. There are, or at least were, many areas where people said TS instead of CH, and these conform pretty well with areas previously Finnic. I coloured in a map I found of it - red is them Pomorye lot in the north (the former "Chud Beyond The Portage"), purple is the area around Murom where the Muroma lived (probably taking in some former Mordva speakers too), and orange is everything in the northwest (involving Merya, Vots, Veps, various proto-Estonians and Setu people):
[Image: 28vab1t.jpg]
Don't forget that there were Balts in much of the region too, as well as Finnics. On the map on the right, I shaded their former extent in grey. Language shift when from something like Latgalian to Russian, there. Many Belorussians are likewise descended from Balts.
Nice map of the state of affairs before Slavonic expansion:
[Image: 30hrcc0.png]
Purple is supposedly Balts, Green - Finnics. The area immediately around Moscow was maybe mixed, as shown in the map.

Some Russian sub-types are far more Finnic than others. The first to come to mind are the Pomors of the Arctic coastal areas around Arkhangelsk. You can even tell from their older village names, which don't mean piss all in Slavonic. Rostov Veliky was a solidly Merya town once, as revealed in the trouble had in converting the place to Christianity. They had some god called Keremet, if I recall correctly, who is still worshipped by the Mari, further downriver. Speaking of religion, monastic missionary efforts are probably to blame/thank for the russification of large areas.

And there are surnames marking out some Russians as descendants of various assimilated peoples, even. Meshcheryakov is a very common name, from the Meshcher people (very similar name to Magyar, of course!), and I know a Marasinov who actually told me he thinks it comes from the Merya.

Have another map! Big Grin
[Image: 2wexedx.png]

And two more for the spread of Slavonic:
[Image: 34f1vs7.gif]
[Image: 1zdowhg.gif]

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
(This post was last modified: 2015 Jun 09 16:19 by Osweo.)
2015 Jun 09 12:45
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Osweo
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
(2015 Jun 09 12:45)Osweo Wrote:  They're still there, in pockets here and there.
Like... Estonia! Big Grin Seriously, what's this thread doing in the Estonian subforum?! ???

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 09 17:59
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Mustapaita
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Why not. Estonians are glorious Finnics.

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2015 Jun 13 09:58
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Osweo
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Just stumbled on a good genetics thingy that's at least partially related:
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article...58552-g001
Interesting differences within the wider Komi group, and broad divergence between them, Baltic Finns and other Europeans.

Shame the Nentsy, Mansi, Permyaks and Bashkir weren't included. Kuradi raisk!

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 13 20:21
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Albion
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Similar process to the Celts in England then I guess. I wondered whether they were pushed out, numerically overwhelmed by Slavs or assimilated.
The Belarussian Lithuania thing - I've seen Belarussian websites claiming themselves as rightful "heirs" of Lithuania and calling themselves Lithuanians.
2015 Jun 14 14:21
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Mustapaita
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
The Finnics of NW Russia (Karelians, Veps, Ingrians, Votes, Izhorians) have mostly been assimilated. As late as a century ago they still numbered around half a million people (compared to a million Estonians and three million Finns) and they were still the majority population in their areas with the exception of some Russian-heavy cities. Some, like the Votes and the Livonians, were small in number already by then.

Novgorod dominated these areas already in the early medieval period but especially with the East Karelians, their seclusion would have made central rule largely nominal for centuries. The Swedes contested their eastern border up to the 18th century after which Russia became the clearly stronger power. A result of Russo-Swedish rivarly Finnics in the area came to fall either into Western or Eastern Christianity and that was far more decisive than any meta-ethnic or linguistic consideration.

So, when Finnish nationalist volunteers marched into East Karelia in 1918-22 on several armed expeditions with the aim of liberating their kinsmen from Russian rule, many Karelians still called them ruotsit, Swedes.

Anyway, the death blow to most of those minority nationalities came with Soviet collectivization and deportation policies.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 14 14:41
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
This was the situation at the beginning of the 1900's:

[Image: 1006spraakkart.gif]

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 14 17:06
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
(2015 Jun 14 17:06)Mustapaita Wrote:  This was the situation at the beginning of the 1900's:

[Image: 1006spraakkart.gif]

Sami aren't Finnic? Think I remember this from somewhere before.
2015 Jun 14 18:50
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RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
(2015 Jun 14 18:50)Albion Wrote:  Sami aren't Finnic? Think I remember this from somewhere before.

Not Baltic Finnic, anyhow. Sometimes Finnic is used in a wider sense, including Permians, Volga-Finnics and Sámi. But if understood strictly as Baltic Finnic, then no, they're not. They branched off earlier on.

[Image: Anthropogenesis-HakkinenUralicTree.jpg]

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 14 19:08
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