What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Author Message
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 905
Post: #11
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Just found two great maps from the 1840s and 50s:
[Image: 1849_spbgub_etn.jpg]
[Image: 1851_nwrossia_etn.jpg]
- best one I've ever seen for the distribution of Karelians in Tverskaya Guberniya.

Can I ask, Musty, what the divisions are between the Finns south of the gulf? "Sawakot" and "Auramoiset" (give or take a few Umlauten)? Savonians and what? Is it a dialect matter? What is the colonisation history this points to?

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 15 23:49
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Osweo's post:
Erwann (16-06-2015)
Mustapaita
Offline
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.957
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 817
Post: #12
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Savakot vs. Äyrämöiset refers to a division within the Ingrian population. Savakot were descendants of migrants from Savonia and western Karelia while Äyrämöiset were Isthmus Karelians. By 1900 there was very little to separate them but in earlier times they had some differing customs, folk dresses, dialects and such. Its quite interesting to see a Russian map make the difference.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 16 00:58
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Mustapaita's post:
Osweo (16-06-2015)
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 905
Post: #13
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
(2015 Jun 16 00:58)Mustapaita Wrote:  Savakot vs. Äyrämöiset refers to a division within the Ingrian population. Savakot were descendants of migrants from Savonia and western Karelia while Äyrämöiset were Isthmus Karelians. By 1900 there was very little to separate them but in earlier times they had some differing customs, folk dresses, dialects and such. Its quite interesting to see a Russian map make the difference.

Curious - Savonians are from the vast inland lake areas of central Finnland, yes? Who sent them to Ingria and when? The map shows "Ingrier" as separate from either Savonians or Äyrämöiset too (on the Soikino Peninsula - the second sticky-up one after Esthland, near the Vots) - were these Ingrians descended from people north of the gulf who weren't Savonian? I suppose the key distinguishing trait of the Äyrämöiset versus the other two was their Orthodox religion versus Lutheranism, no?

I stuck the name Äyrämöiset into Google Translator, chopping it up in various ways, but wasn't able to make much sense of it (just discovering that moiset and oiset mean "wonderful" and "mirrors"!). Does it have a clear meaning in Finnish, or are they just named after some obscure toponym?

The man we have to thank for the map in question is Doctor Peter von Koeppen. It's thus as much a German map as a Russian one, really. I found some biographies of his son that mention him:
Quote:Wladimir Köppen, (born September 25, 1846, St. Petersburg, Russian Empire—died June 22, 1940, Graz, Austria), German meteorologist and climatologist best known for his delineation and mapping of the climatic regions of the world. He played a major role in the advancement of climatology and meteorology for more than 70 years. His achievements, practical and theoretical, profoundly influenced the development of atmospheric science.
http://global.britannica.com/biography/W...ter-Koppen
Köppen remained in Russia until he was 20. His grandfather was one of the German physicians invited to Russia by the empress Catherine the Great to improve sanitation in the provinces. He later became personal physician to the tsar.
and
Quote:Wladimir Köppen
http://www.biografiasyvidas.com/biografia/k/koppen.htm
(San Petersburgo, 1846-Graz, 1940) Climatólogo alemán de origen ruso. Director del Observatorio Marítimo de Hamburgo, publicó un Manual de climatología (1930 y años sucesivos). Elaboró mapas de las regiones climáticas de la Tierra y una completa y acreditada clasificación de los climas que, con algunas modificaciones, se sigue empleando en la actualidad.

[Image: koppen.jpg]
Wladimir Köppen

Su padre, Peter von Köppen (1793-1864), trabajó en la Academia de San Petersburgo como geógrafo, estadístico e historiador; en gratitud por sus servicios a la cultura rusa, el zar Alejandro II lo hizo académico y le concedió una hacienda en la costa meridional de Crimea, donde el hijo encontró el escenario para sus primeras exploraciones botánicas. La riqueza de la flora y la variedad climática de Crimea despertaron el interés de Köppen por el mundo de las plantas y sus relaciones con el clima.


A passionate cartographer, who got a Crimean estate for his trouble!

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 16 01:45
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 905
Post: #14
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Ah, no, there's another bunch of "Ingrians" deep inland, directly south of Peterburg, too, which rather speaks against any simplistic colonist theory I might have been entertaining. By Lake Vyalye, around the village of "Tschatschsche" (lol! Just "Chashche" in our transcription, and an even simpler Чаща in Cyrillic - just means "little thicket/wood/copse"). Zooming in a bit on Google Maps, there's a little settlement there called Votsko, making at least some connection with the Vots. Complicated bit of ethnography, round this area.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 16 01:58
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Mustapaita
Offline
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.957
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 817
Post: #15
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Quote:Curious - Savonians are from the vast inland lake areas of central Finnland, yes? Who sent them to Ingria and when? The map shows "Ingrier" as separate from either Savonians or Äyrämöiset too (on the Soikino Peninsula - the second sticky-up one after Esthland, near the Vots) - were these Ingrians descended from people north of the gulf who weren't Savonian? I suppose the key distinguishing trait of the Äyrämöiset versus the other two was their Orthodox religion versus Lutheranism, no?

Ingrians are Lutheran Finns (Savonians and Karelians) who arrived in the area as colonists mainly in the 17th century after war had depopulated large parts of it and the orthodox had fled. The Ingrians are made up of two main groups, the äyrämöiset and savakot. I'm not aware of others. One small group near the Ingrians and the Votes are the Izhorians (inkerikot or inkeroiset in Finnish) who like the Votes are an older population and Orthodox.

Quote:I stuck the name Äyrämöiset into Google Translator, chopping it up in various ways, but wasn't able to make much sense of it (just discovering that moiset and oiset mean "wonderful" and "mirrors"!). Does it have a clear meaning in Finnish, or are they just named after some obscure toponym?

Its related to Äyräpää, the place where many of them originated from. Äyrä means river bank. Äyräpää literally means river bank head/end. And äyrämöinen is what you call a native of these parts. Smile

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 16 04:45
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 2 users Like Mustapaita's post:
Mylene (16-06-2015), Osweo (16-06-2015)
Godyfa
Offline
Daughter of Yorkshire



England

Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 2014
Reputation: 112
Post: #16
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Here's another question: How come the northern Finnics (Finland and neighboring areas) are white, but people further south like the Urdmurts are more Asiatic? Which race were the original speakers of the language group?

Here's a map that shows the current situation:

[Image: Finno-Ugric_languages.png]
2015 Jun 16 15:28
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 905
Post: #17
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
(2015 Jun 16 04:45)Mustapaita Wrote:  Ingrians are Lutheran Finns (Savonians and Karelians) who arrived in the area as colonists mainly in the 17th century after war had depopulated large parts of it and the orthodox had fled. The Ingrians are made up of two main groups, the äyrämöiset and savakot. I'm not aware of others. One small group near the Ingrians and the Votes are the Izhorians (inkerikot or inkeroiset in Finnish) who like the Votes are an older population and Orthodox.
Ah, these Izhory are obviously the ones confusing me on the map, where our Gut Herr Doktor has rather sloppily labeled them simply "Ingrier". I suppose the incoming Lutherans simply adopted the regional name as an identifier, not caring that it had itself come from the name of a distinct ethnic group who survived on its western margins.
Quote: Its related to Äyräpää, the place where many of them originated from. Äyrä means river bank. Äyräpää literally means river bank head/end. And äyrämöinen is what you call a native of these parts. Smile
thumbs up

I have a nice little map, suggesting the Izhortsy had lived further to the east in mediaeval times:
[Image: 2e33hvd.jpg]

Combining with the mid nineteenth century situation:
[Image: 2vltoj7.gif]

Probably rash of me to assume too much correspondence between an administrative region's boundaries and the ethnic situation, but it can't be too far out, I suppose. Seems the warfare between Russkie and Ruotsi devastated the central route between the two powers, splitting the Izhory in two, and leaving the main former area free for Karelian and Savonian colonisation.

The old Novgorod Republic's division into Fifths, of which one was the Vodskaya Fifth (Pyatina), may hint at an even earlier situation. Some nice maps here if you haven't already seen em:
[Image: piatiny.jpg]

The Vod Fifth stretched way up into Karelia, but this has more to do with the radial system stretching out from the centre than cultural considerations, probably.
[Image: uuhah.jpg]

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 16 16:16
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 905
Post: #18
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
(2015 Jun 16 15:28)Godyfa Wrote:  Here's another question: How come the northern Finnics (Finland and neighboring areas) are white, but people further south like the Urdmurts are more Asiatic? Which race were the original speakers of the language group?

Nah, you're just mistaken there. I've met Udmurt, Komi and Mordva, and they're European, really. Look like Russians, with a dash of Pixie in them... Big Grin It's when you get too far up to the Arctic or over the Urals that really funny stuff starts popping up, and these aren't really Finnics proper anyway - Samoyeds (not even on your map there though), Ugrics etc. The closer you get to the Tatars and other Turkics, there's a bit more foreign flavour, naturally, but it doesn't dominate. There's more Finnic in the Turkics there than vice versa.

There probably is reason to believe that a rather "Siberian" looking type came up with the language, and spread it onto more European peoples in one direction - probably due to the prestige of being slightly better adapted following some climatic shifts, but we're not talking full on moon-faced Cantonese here.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 16 16:21
Like PostLIKE REPLY
Mustapaita
Offline
Tulkoon sota ja veriset vaatteet



Suomi

Posts: 3.957
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 817
Post: #19
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Quote:I suppose the incoming Lutherans simply adopted the regional name as an identifier, not caring that it had itself come from the name of a distinct ethnic group who survived on its western margins.

I'm not sure when Ingrians began to call themselves that, but I'm pretty sure the name Ingria (including its Finnic forms) is a loan from Swedish Ingermanland. It corresponds to the Novgorodian land of Vod and even in Russian today it can also be called Ižorskaja zemlja.

So it seems Ingria gave its name to the people living there rather than vice versa.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 16 18:44
Like PostLIKE REPLY
The following 1 user Likes Mustapaita's post:
Osweo (16-06-2015)
Osweo
Offline
Member



England

Posts: 2.884
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 905
Post: #20
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
There's a hydronym to bring into the equation too, though. I have a book by Ruf Ageyeva, whose title translates as "Countries and Peoples: the Origin of Names", and in my notes from it, she says:
Ingria < Izhora, Izhortsya < Finnish Ingrikot < River Inkeri, which is explained as "winding river". Does that etymology make sense in your Finnish? She also mentions something about the personal names Ingrid, Ingvar and so on, but my notes were too brief and I can't remember if this was just about folk etymologies or refuted alternatives or the like.

PBFs, i.e. Pribaltiiskie Finny, ;) , don't really have "zh" sounds in their phonetics, do they?

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 16 19:22
Like PostLIKE REPLY


Forum Jump:


User(s) browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)