What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
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Mustapaita
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Post: #21
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
I think some Karelian dialects might have it.

Quote:I have a book by Ruf Ageyeva, whose title translates as "Countries and Peoples: the Origin of Names", and in my notes from it, she says:
Ingria < Izhora, Izhortsya < Finnish Ingrikot < River Inkeri, which is explained as "winding river".

Sounds like rubbish. Inkeri is the Finnish equivalent of Ingered/Ingrid and I've never heard of a river called that.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 16 19:32
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Osweo
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Post: #22
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
The river flows into the Neva from the south, just a little beyond Peterburg, and flows past Tsarskoye Selo where the Tsars' palace is and where Pushkin went to school as a boy. It's Izhora in Russian (Ust' -Izhora - "Mouth of the Izhora" is the name of the settlement where it flows into the Neva), and the idea is that this is the Slavonic version of an older "Inkeri". I dunno, I'm just quoting some hasty notes. Faced with sounds like 'ing" or "y", old Russian did tend to bring Zs and Zhs into play - Kuningaz > Knyaz for example. If it was something like "ingkyer", which the Swedes then got their Ingermanland from, then a Russian "Izhora" would make sense, especially if zh sounds were not found in the local speech.

About phonetics, I was very surprised when I started looking into Komi. ыджыд is particularly memorable - ydzhyd. Such an unwieldy word for "big", and nothing at all like any Finnish sort of word I'd heard! Sure, I knew there was a few millennia of divergence involved, but even so! Big Grin

Just found an interesting map of migrations into Ingria during Swedish rule:
[Image: inkeri_asutus.jpg]
Even gives numbers. I suppose we owe this to the bureaucratic extravagance of the Swedish state!
"In-migration into the Ingria region in 1570-1675"

Areas of Finland, which sent migrants into Ingria: 1) Kymi Manor County, 2) Lappee, 3) the Vyborg area, 4) Jääski, 5) Äyräpää, Smile 6) Käkisalmi County, 7) Suur-Savo, 8) Eastern Savo, 9) North Savo

Region 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Quantity 48 414 597 591 1403 846 582 347 145

(The site's mostly about the tragic events of the 1940s, with stuff about the genocidal deportations, but it has a bit of background history too - http://www.narc.fi/Arkistolaitos/inkeril...1600l.html )

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 16 20:15
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Mustapaita
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Post: #23
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
The izhorians are basically descended from isthmus Karelians who became orthodox instead of catholic in the 13 th and 14 th centuries and were cut off from the rest of the isthmus Karelians by the treaty of Nöteborg. I've seen a sample of written Izhorian and its completely intelligible for a Finnish speaker, nevermind a Finnish Karelian.

The Finnish consensus is that Inkeri is a loan (from ingermanland) or at least I've never seen anyone argue against it. The Finnish wikipedia article on the river you mentioned claims the Izhorians were named after the river.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 16 21:27
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Mustapaita
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Post: #24
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
I leafed through my Itämerensuomalaiset - Heimokansojen historiaa ja kohtaloita and it didn't touch upon the issue of Inkeri's etymology. It did however mention the Inkere/Izhora -river. I looked through some Swedish wikiarticles and they mentioned the Inkere -river theory as the commonly accepted one. Strange that this etymology is so absent in Finnish literature...

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 17 04:37
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Post: #25
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
This is as good a place to ask as any other: Musty! Why is Savonia blank, here?
[Image: Finnish%20tribes%20(with%20Kvens)%201000​...0%20AD.jpg]
http://koti.mbnet.fi/freebird/Suomi/Finn...0%20AD.jpg

The map kind of implies it was Lappish territory, as far as I can make out. I read something about the Lapps having moved up from around the White Sea, but didn't think it was so recent.

Is it just incomplete or wrong?

EDIT, pissing link dun't seem to work, except when you go to it from Google Image Search...
Here:
[Image: 2h89shf.jpg]

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Jun 26 14:36
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Post: #26
RE: What happened to Finnic peoples in north west Russia?
Savonia as a distinct historical 'county' did not emerge until pretty late. I guess the mix of Tavastian and Karelian could be "proto-Savonia" on that map. "Lapps" inhabited the area until at least the early iron age, but its unclear whether these Lapps were Sámi or not. Lapp was a word used for anyone living the semi-nomadic hunter-gathering lifestyle before it came to denote the sámi specifically. Both Karelians and Tavastians spread into what was to become Savonia, and its mainly out of this stock that Savonians originate from.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jun 26 15:14
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