20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
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Phlegethon
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Post: #11
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
If you lose you always get ridiculed. If you win... well, that's another story.

As a German I see the same Balkan mentality in Serbia, Greece, Bosnia, Romania and Bulgaria.

Today I read in the FAZ about the uncanny role old Izetbegovic played in the Srebrenica affair. The muslims there were sacrificed as pawns in the game. Too late to pelt him with rocks, though.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2015 Jul 15 00:12
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Post: #12
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
Keep it civil war, guys.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Jul 15 05:00
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Aramis
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Post: #13
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
(2015 Jul 13 13:10)Phlegethon Wrote:  Serbs are the victims of a pro-muslim propaganda swing

They are not. Or not more than other ethnicities in this area. The Serbian rulling class is though.

Quote:involving fishy mass grave stories (and especially Germans can tell a story or two about fishy mass graves propaganda tales)

You being German (with all that comes with it) is proof enough to you these mass graves don't exists?

As a bosnian Croat I can verify that they do.


(2015 Jul 14 20:19)Lohengrin Wrote:  eah, you don't sound biased at all, Tvrtko. ;)

Me being allergic to clichéd bullshit makes me biased? Do elaborate, or this statement is irrelevant and rather an ad hominem than anything else.

Quote:the U.S. wanted to splinter Yugoslavia

Yes.

Quote:that most Serbs including Milosevic, and many Croats, secular Bosnians etc, wanted to prevent that from happening.

No. Or rather, not exclusively.

Quote:After it was clear that the split was inevitable, he sought to protect the unrepresented Serb minorities outside of Yugoslavia against various nationalists supported by NATO.

Apart from him stirring up all sorts of lies which made the local Serbian population (Croatian and Bosnian) go batshit crazy on propaganda starting to "defend" themselves against non existing threats...

No, not really. The only goal Milošević sought to accomplish is to accommodate himself to the current flow of circumstances which would inevitably lead to him seizing complete control of larger areas of the former Yugoslavian state.

Milošević was a textbook rationalist and machiavellian character. Nothing more or less. He utilized local scum like Ratko Mladić or Željko Ražnatović Arkan, and surounded himself with inferior statesmen like Goran Hadžić or Radovan Karadžić to achieve his goals.

Samo kurvi i konobaru pare ostavljam.
2015 Jul 15 19:44
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Dussander
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RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
(2015 Jul 15 19:44)Aramis Wrote:  
Quote:the U.S. wanted to splinter Yugoslavia
Yes.

A common myth.

We must dissent.

[Image: 10494820_10152495444871387_2677074454375​72888_n.jpg]
2015 Jul 15 20:16
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Aramis
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RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
Quote:Anyhow, the claim that 8,000 people were killed in Srebrenica is a complete fabrication.

Just out of curiosity, explain how you came to this conclusion...

Quote:They have, however, found more than 2,000 Serb remains in the outlying villages destroyed by Oric's 28th division, including women and children killed

Can't really deny Oric being a criminal. I am acquainted with him, got to know him on several occasions. Same type of thug such as Arkan. Well, almost. Oric is more refined and not quite as hotheaded. That's why I wont defend him.

As for the 2.000 figure... where did you get this info from?
I guess you are talking about the (alleged) massacre in the village of Kravice. And not 2000 Serbs were killed, but 78. And that's a figure given by a staunch Serb nationalist (Milorad Dodik again).

Naser Oric was charged for this crime and was set free, for in the trial it was made cear that the Serb village of Kravica was a Serbian military base.


Quote:They haven't even found more that 2,500 or so remains.

6.166 Bosnian muslim bodies from Srebrenica have already been buried, 7.100 found so far (the difference between these two numbers represents the still unidentified remains).

Next.

Quote:not just fighting age men (mostly soldiers) which the Serbs killed in Srebrenica

I am not really going to comment much on this, as the youngest Bosnian musim victim was just a few months old.

Quote:I posted earlier the findings of the UN Secretary General regarding Srebrenica being a major military base for the Bosnian government, though it was supposed to be demilitarized under UN auspices. Yet this fact is also deliberately left out in the western Srebrenica narrative.

I believe the time has come to bring this crap to an end. In order to do so, I want to be clear on your exact opinion and reasoning.

So...

Srebrenica was a Bosnian war base, create to ethnically cleanse eastern Bosnia from all Serbs ---> Orić begun to execute these plans by killing 2000 Serbs ---> The slaughter of Bosnians there was just an act of retaliation and/or preventive act by the Serb forces.

Have I summed up your views or did I mistake somewhere?

Samo kurvi i konobaru pare ostavljam.
2015 Jul 15 20:26
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Aramis
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Post: #16
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
(2015 Jul 15 20:16)Dussander Wrote:  A common myth.

the West really intervened ≠ the U.S. wanted to.

They wanted to seize control of the region. Their constant and recent involvement in Bosnia is indicator enough. Now as for their methods and level of involvement at the very beginning of the breakup itself, I do agree it to be a rather speculative question and I am not sure yet what to think of it.

Didn't have the time to read through your whole post. I will once I find time for it though. Looks interesting. thumbs up

EDIT: Just read through it. Interesting statements and points you present there. But like i said, their desire for control of the Yugoslavian territories (which is clear even from your post) and their involvement in the act of breakup wars itself are two different points to be considered. I simply made references to the first aspect.

Samo kurvi i konobaru pare ostavljam.
2015 Jul 15 20:33
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Post: #17
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
(2015 Jul 15 20:16)Dussander Wrote:  A common myth.

Interesting post, and I'm sorry, but:

Quote:Next, let's see what they did. After the foreign debt of Yugoslavia exceeded 20 billion USD in 1982, the American ambassador in Belgrade, Lawrence Eagleburger [...]

[Image: oox5vrfn.jpg]

LOL

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2015 Jul 15 21:02
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Post: #18
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
(2015 Jul 15 20:26)Aramis Wrote:  As for the 2.000 figure... where did you get this info from?

I've seen the same number being mentioned many times as well. An internet search also provides various results:

Quote:Over 1,300 Serbs were killed during the three years of clashes in the territory of the municipalities of Srebrenica, Zvornik, Milici, Bratunac, Vlasenica and Osmaci. In the region of Birče and the Drina River's mid-course, a total of 3,267 Serbs were killed, a majority of whom were civilians, women and children.

800 children were left either without one or both parents, while 5,400 families lost their property. Dozens of Serb villages were destroyed.

The commemoration for the Serb victims in the region is organized by the Board for Fostering the Tradition of the Liberation Wars of the government of the Serb Republic.

Thus far, not a single person faced justice in courts in Bosnia-Herzegovina for the crimes committed against Serbs in the Drina and Birča region.

The Serbian prosecution is investigating crimes committed between April 1992 and June 1995 against some 2,000 Serbs, who were victims the forces commanded by Naser Orić.

http://www.b92.net/eng/news/region.php?y...v_id=75390

Quote:According to reliable testimony by Serbs and Bosniaks from this region, through April 1993 units of the Muslim army attacked more than one hundred Serb villages and hamlets in these four municipalities (70 of the attacks took place through December 1992), killing approximately 1,000 civilians and members of the Republic of Srpska Army (VRS), and wounding or injuring between 2,800 and 3,200 Serbs.

http://en.europenews.dk/Naser-Nasir-Oric...80676.html

Other sources were dedicatedly pro-Serbian, so I'll quote only these two. As for the numbers of Bosnian victims in Srebrenica, I've read some stuff about how the numbers were falsified by digging up graves of people unrelated to the massacre and adding them to the death toll and things like that. I have no sources at hand right now and I'm no pro on this topic, so I'll keep it at that.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2015 Jul 15 21:19
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Lohengrin (16-07-2015)
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Post: #19
RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
(2015 Jul 14 20:19)Lohengrin Wrote:  It should be pretty obvious to anyone with a triple digit IQ that the U.S. wanted to splinter Yugoslavia and that most Serbs including Milosevic, and many Croats, secular Bosnians etc, wanted to prevent that from happening.

Yes, 95% people who voted YES on referendum for independence clearly shows how Croats wanted to stay in Yugoslavia.
This serbo-yugonostalgic narrative is getting quite boring. Tko nas bre zavadi?

(2015 Jul 14 20:19)Lohengrin Wrote:  Yeah, we wouldn't want to muddy talks of genocide with any mention of Lašva Valley or Operation Storm. That would complicate the simplistic Hollywood narrative. ;)

You don't even know which term to use where so I'll just stop discussing with you here.

DžDž
2015 Jul 16 13:10
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RE: 20 years after Srebrenica - Serb PM stoned by Muslims
Honestly, I don't think that people who has power care about victims of the war. They just use what happened to gain political power and continue to manipulate with the masses.
I think the Balkan won't change soon... It's always "ours" and "theirs" and it's always blaming and denying. But where is humanity here?

It's simple...There is nothing honorable in killing. You don't become better person if you kill or attack, you become better person if you learn how to understand and forgive. Human souls doesn't have any label or sign and whole this story needs another approach (not only simple quantification).

What happened in Srebrenica is huge crime against humanity and that's the fact. It shouldn't happen. But it's reality and we need to learn something from this and never let it happen again.
Obviously, I am Serbian and i am very well aware with general opinion in Serbia and Serbian side and it also happened that i've met people who lost family members in wars or they had to escape (but i'm also sure it happened to people of other ethnicities). Obviously, I wanted to hear other sides too and try to see what is the truth. I don't think Serbs aren't guilty, Serbian politicians at that time made many stupid moves, just because they were selfish and hungry for power, but I also don't think that someone has right to call us "genocide nation", like some likes to do today. There is no sense in it. My family, for example, didn't participate in any war in the last 200 years.

Also, people need to talk more about crimes against women and children, especially rapes. I may be wrong, but i have feeling that SOME men have natural instinct to use aggression on women and try to abuse them somehow, and i can only imagine what can happen when those men get actual power and permission to follow their impulses, and this is especially true for some Balkan men (yeah, they like to talk about honor and dignity, but they are cowards who have no idea what it really means, and the wars are just proof for that).

coffee
2015 Jul 17 00:37
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