Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
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Temnozor
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  The industry in the Soviet Union didn't do well. It worked because people in the Soviet Republics and also the Eastern European Satellit states were forced to by the uncompetitive products.

That's ... partially true but doesn't make sense as a whole. A certain part of the Soviet Industry was uncompetitive indeed and that was what Soviets called the "B Segment" or "light industry" - production of consumer goods, in ordinary language. I'm sure that after the radical opening of the markets, barely anyone would have bought the razors and lamps made in Lvov (although I totally would go for the razors, because they were indestructible Big Grin), thus leading to the ruin of certain factories.

But in the "A Segment", heavy industry that is, the Soviet Union always excelled and could easily compete on the international market. For example, why do you think Tupolev, a producer that used to sell airliners to dozens of countries, does barely produce any planes today? Because Tupolev was a bad producer? No way. What happened, in your opinion, to the Soviet pharma industry? Quality wise it was one of the world's leading industries in this segment and today post-Soviet countries have to import most medicines. Advanced technologies like lasers, which the Soviet Union has pioneered, among others - what happened to them? Heavy machine construction, ship building? The list goes on.

And that's not to mention low-tech stuff like bread baking factories, brick factories, tool factories and so on, which closed down production in masses (and reopened later, once the looting Jews oligarchs were done with them). They can't be called uncompetitive, because the only competitive advantage such factories need is a good location and access to the local market. The notion that Soviet industries broke down after the reforms because they were "uncompetitive" is Western propaganda bullshit. The real reasons were a) disastrous privatisation programs and b) the breakdown of supply chains and markets in other ex-communist countries.

(2015 Aug 28 15:50)Gamera Wrote:  They yearned for Western products. I remember as a child when people going to Leningrad packed their bags with nylon stockings, sanitary towels, jeans etc. to hand out to people living there.

That's just consumer goods, there was little production of these in the USSR. That does not make a point against the Soviet industry as such and also I assume that this was in the mid-80s, when the breakdown already started with Gorbachev.

(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  When the computerization arrived the Soviet industry couldn't tag along and this was one of the reasons why the Soviet Union broke down. Belorussia was better off than many of the other Soviet Republics, it already produced about half of all the software and computer products in the Soviet Union.

The USSR was quite advanced in computer development, but the leadership indeed always had a problem with the implementation of computer technologies in the industrial process. However, that was not such a sharp issue in the mid-80s. Only Japan was really advanced in that field back then, even the Americans had to catch up first.

The point about Belarussia sounds false. Most of the Soviet computer production was centered in Moscow and Leningrad, at the country's most important universities. That's also why Russia today has a lot of great IT companies (Yandex, ABBYY, Kaspersky etc.) while I can't think of any Belarusian one. Belarus always used to produce agricultural machinery like tractors and chemical products, that's what they still do today.

(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  It’s hilarious that people who complain about oppression of views in the Western countries are so utterly fascinated by countries that really control their citizens.

The good thing about Soviet propaganda was, that it was so obviously wrong that people didn't believe in much of it. The West is far more advanced in terms of crowd control than the USSR ever was, making most people willfully ignorant and acceptive towards policies from above. In Germany and Britain they even managed to make people pay for being indoctrinated by the state TV. Imagine that in the USSR? Stalin's dream come true! Tongue

(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  You said: "I would pick Lukashenko over Putin at any time." If someone would make a comment about me on par with what you made about Putin I'd assume I'm not very popular.

That was, although true, a bit of an overstatement. Anyway, if person A is better than person B, that doesn't imply that person B is bad. Simple logic.

(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  I spoke on behalf of all its neighbours.

Russia has it's sphere of interests, I don't see, however, where we are pushing any "Russian leaders" on anyone.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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(This post was last modified: 2015 Aug 28 19:18 by Temnozor.)
2015 Aug 28 16:43
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
Coming from a city that is more or less a post-industrial wreck, I cannot help but be envious of Belorussians, whose leadership decided it was more important to protect native industry than to buy into globalist models that only benefit a handful of international plutocrats at the end of the day. In its heyday, all the USSR was like this. For all its faults, each city had a real raison d'etre. Its people had a guaranteed livelihood in an industry that kept their city alive. In England, Maggie Thatcher decided to let entire regions of the country die, with a dismissive comment "on your bike!"

And I've had it argued to me that Cuba is a disaster because you can't get a certain fancy kind of plastic toothbrush... People are happy to receive such brushes as gifts, and thus, to the First World tourist, the entire socialist system ought to be abandoned. That is the logic we're dealing with: To sell a country for a toothbrush!

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Aug 29 00:09
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Post: #13
RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
"On yer bike" was Tebbit. However it is a bit of a misquote as he was talking about what his father did when he was unemployed. He said his father got on his bike to look for work in contrast to the supposedly natural reaction of rioting seen in the Black riots of Handsworth and Brixton.

Our industry was fucked already and would have failed eventually with the stranglehold a lot of the unions held it in. Thatchers economic reforms hastened its decline rapidly of course, brought in the "casino capitalism" of today, massively increased unemployment and excessive wealth inequality. And then Blair, destroyer of nations, continued with it but with a hard on for migrants and diversity.

Nationalised industry is better than near to none, all owned by foreign multinationals who often will shut up shop and move operations abroad for cheaper labour.

totalitARYAN
(This post was last modified: 2015 Aug 29 11:10 by Surtr Kvlt.)
2015 Aug 29 05:48
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
(2015 Aug 28 15:50)Gamera Wrote:  
(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  I remember as a child when people going to Leningrad packed their bags with nylon stockings, sanitary towels, jeans etc. to hand out to people living there. The only thing the Soviets really excelled at were making weapons.

That doesn't really prove anything beyond the fact people visiting Leningrad wanted to reinforce their moral excellence through a form of direct "charity", feeling all good inside when going back to their suburbs in Western Europe.

This still takes place in Cuba (the country with a criminal embargo, and at the same time one of the highest HDI scores in whole Latin America), and it is well known by the locals. Tourists, being brainwashed into thinking people there are dying of hunger and craving for all sorts of American merchandise, quite often give out a lot of stuff to people passing by. Cubans take advantage of this, of course, and will never reject anything being handed to them: they're free, exotic products. They don't really need the stuff; they take everything and sell it in the black market, making some cash for themselves.

Cuba? Starving? ??? I'm not talking about Cuba, I'm talking about the Soviet Union. Even if the food was monotonous and not very nutritious I don't think the Soviets actually starved. The bread was always cheap. But I remember that some of the first Russians to come to Finland after the Soviet Union had fallen took photos of the food in our shops to show the people back home. They wouldn't have believed only their words if they had told them how filled with food our shops were.

Western products were indeed in great demand among the Soviets, they used to swap Vodka bottles for Western hygiene articles and clothes. I've heard from reliable eye witnesses that this was as common in the seventies as it was in the eighties.

Personally I visited Leningrad the first time in February -91 at the age of 6. What I remember from that visit is how dull and poor everything was. And that the female cashier did her counting on an abacus.
2015 Aug 30 21:12
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Kat
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
(2015 Aug 28 16:43)Temnozor Wrote:  
(2015 Aug 28 14:42)Kat Wrote:  When the computerization arrived the Soviet industry couldn't tag along and this was one of the reasons why the Soviet Union broke down. Belorussia was better off than many of the other Soviet Republics, it already produced about half of all the software and computer products in the Soviet Union.

The USSR was quite advanced in computer development, but the leadership indeed always had a problem with the implementation of computer technologies in the industrial process. However, that was not such a sharp issue in the mid-80s. Only Japan was really advanced in that field back then, even the Americans had to catch up first.

The point about Belarussia sounds false. Most of the Soviet computer production was centered in Moscow and Leningrad, at the country's most important universities. That's also why Russia today has a lot of great IT companies (Yandex, ABBYY, Kaspersky etc.) while I can't think of any Belarusian one. Belarus always used to produce agricultural machinery like tractors and chemical products, that's what they still do today.

Here are some links to websites that describe Belarus as the "Silicon Valley" of the Soviet Union:

Quote:The Soviet Union had its own technology capital once, though you might be surprised to learn it wasn't located in the Russian Republic.

"Belarus was regarded as the 'Silicon Valley' of the former Soviet Union, manufacturing over 50 percent of the computers and components in the former USSR." said Sergei A. Rachkov, deputy permanent representative, Permanent Mission of the Republic of Belarus. "Nowadays, [the] software and IT services sector is one of the most successful and fastest growing industries in Belarus."

http://betanews.com/2008/03/28/eastern-e...on-valley/

Quote:In fact, this small Eastern European country was once known as the Silicon Valley of the former Soviet Union prior to its dissolution into multiple independent states in 1991. This laid the groundwork for the Belarus’ growth as an exporter of technology services, particularly software development services. The prolific growth and success of the country’s technology sector led to the establishment of the Belarus High Tech Park in 2004, which has come to play a vital role for many US and global corporations.
http://www.sam-solutions.us/blog/bela-wh...ern-europe
2015 Aug 30 21:28
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
(2015 Aug 29 00:09)Osweo Wrote:  And I've had it argued to me that Cuba is a disaster because you can't get a certain fancy kind of plastic toothbrush... People are happy to receive such brushes as gifts, and thus, to the First World tourist, the entire socialist system ought to be abandoned. That is the logic we're dealing with: To sell a country for a toothbrush!

Really? Tongue Who's the imaginary friend you've been talking to?
2015 Aug 30 21:32
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
What the grandkids of Stakhanovites throw away for blue jeans and toothbrushes... sad

Hehe, a similar case in the Ukraine:
[Image: nvdaily.ru_.png]
"I am a girl! I don't wont to be in the (Eurasian) Customs Union! I want frilly lace knickers and the EU!"
Back story:
http://russia-insider.com/en/ukraine-suc...irl/ri9389

Or, to save time, instead of fancy lingerie, she got civil war, chaos, shafted by the West's false promises, and is now seeking work in evil enemy Russia...

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2015 Aug 31 12:23
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Mustapaita
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
(2015 Aug 30 21:32)Kat Wrote:  Or, to save time, instead of fancy lingerie, she got civil war, chaos, shafted by the West's false promises, and is now seeking work in evil enemy Russia...

All she got was a cynical Russian proxy war instead.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2015 Aug 31 14:48
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Surtr Kvlt (31-08-2015)
W. R.
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
Quote:"I am a girl! I don't wont to be in the (Eurasian) Customs Union! I want frilly lace knickers and the EU!"

In case someone wonders what do lace knickers have to do with the Customs Union: it's a reference to this ban.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2015 Aug 31 19:41
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Temnozor
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RE: Migrants from Eastern Ukraine Put Pressure on Belarus
(2015 Aug 31 19:41)W. R. Wrote:  In case someone wonders what do lace knickers have to do with the Customs Union: it's a reference to this ban.

Oh Jeez, she would have tons of fun learning about EU regulations and restrictions. LOL

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2015 Sep 01 07:25
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