The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
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Raskolnikov
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Post: #11
RE: The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
"Fake, gay and unpredictable" is a winning combination in the political system we actually live under.

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2016 May 27 04:47
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Sincfal
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Post: #12
RE: The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
(2016 May 26 22:11)Quaestor Wrote:  It is not hugely likely there will ever be a deal more real than this. All the extras that you like to see, will involve a process of many decades, and hard work. I don't even see a primary role for politicians here, other than facilitating it.

Repairing/improving the foundations of your house to ensure it will not collapse, is a much less urgent thing to do than extinguishing the fire that is threatening its existence in the here and now.

Having said that, I think that e.g. someone like Martin Bosma, the former chief of "the Netherlands' only really multicultural radio station", already has achieved more in making people even remind that we actually do live in a house with foundations, than any (and I do certainly not mean any disrespect) of the old CD/CP-crew that Phleggy mentioned earlier.

Wilders' protesting appeals to the anxiety of the good shopkeeper who has been robbed and harassed by a couple of immigrants, or autochtonous neighbours who get alienated in their old districts and meanwhile have to pay taxes to fund the liberal projects, and so forth. So his supporters are mainly people with lower middle class incomes, or workers who used to vote Labour (PvdA) in the past (not exactly the group Wilders' former party, the VVD, represented by the way). In general those people are not very much interested in the origin or the nature of Western values. To most of the folk, Western values date back to the 1960's. Wilders is as much a supporter of gay rights and other newly acquired 'freedoms' as any party in the mainstream spectrum. So what these values are is a central issue in the discussion. As long as the free and open society of consumers is seen as the highest attainable goal, not much will change indeed.
In this respect, the old CD/CP- crew you mentioned has a better idea of what could be a European identity worth to defend than Wilders has, but I agree with you that it's not a very appropiate strategy. Apart from that, I personally don't believe in brandishing with old Germanic and Celtic symbols as if they still would be felt in the same way as they were fifteen hundred or two thousand years ago. I consider the revival of old paganism along with its symbols as kitsch (yet I am certainly interested in ancient cultures, albeit in a more archeological/historical way). Whether we like it or not, our tangible heritage lies in Christianity.
2016 May 28 12:20
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Phlegethon
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Post: #13
RE: The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
The Celtic cross is a symbol of Christianity, not paganism. Although I am not sure that most nutzis have actually grabbed that concept.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2016 May 28 12:38
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Post: #14
RE: The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
(2016 May 28 12:20)Sincfal Wrote:  Wilders' protesting appeals to the anxiety of the good shopkeeper who has been robbed and harassed by a couple of immigrants, or autochtonous neighbours who get alienated in their old districts and meanwhile have to pay taxes to fund the liberal projects, and so forth. So his supporters are mainly people with lower middle class incomes, or workers who used to vote Labour (PvdA) in the past (not exactly the group Wilders' former party, the VVD, represented by the way). In general those people are not very much interested in the origin or the nature of Western values. To most of the folk, Western values date back to the 1960's.
I agree. I don't see that change within years, or even decades. Imho, if all would go well, the best you and I can hope for, is that we, during our lifetimes, will see that our European Volkeren* are slowly starting to move in a direction towards what we deem valuable, life-wise and society-wise.

*(This is Dutch for 'peoples'. I am somewhat of an Anglophile, especially when it comes to language, but in this particular case, the Dutch word carries much more meaning, especially in an exchange with my fellow Dutchman Sincfal)

(2016 May 28 12:20)Sincfal Wrote:  Wilders is as much a supporter of gay rights and other newly acquired 'freedoms' as any party in the mainstream spectrum. So what these values are is a central issue in the discussion. As long as the free and open society of consumers is seen as the highest attainable goal, not much will change indeed.
While I agree with your assessment, I have to disagree with the last sentence, as first Fortuyn, and now Wilders actually made/make it clear to people that these liberal values are NOT universal — but belong to a specific Western 'modernity', that is now under threat by the immigrating hordes from Retardistan. That does not mean that we have to put all of these liberal values on a shield and lift it above our heads; what's important here is the "us vs. them" dichotomy, that once again has been made visible to less perceptive majority of our volk.

(2016 May 28 12:20)Sincfal Wrote:  In this respect, the old CD/CP- crew you mentioned has a better idea of what could be a European identity worth to defend than Wilders has, but I agree with you that it's not a very appropiate strategy.
To some extent, yes. I especially think that Mudde is an original thinker, an artist even. However, I do think that the entire nationalist discourse in the wake of national-socialism, carries with it a certain rigidity that I no longer think should be pursued — so my preference for a more moderate course goes somewhat further than just strategic/rhetoric objections. I do however have respect, and a certain fondness, for that old CD/CP-crew: Mudde, Mordaunt, Frehling, Ruitenberg, Beaux and others, including Janmaat and Vierling, and especially grand old man Joop Glimmerveen!

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A fine specimen of a species that is becoming rarer and rarer: a true Dutchman, Johann Georg (Joop) Glimmerveen

(2016 May 28 12:20)Sincfal Wrote:  Apart from that, I personally don't believe in brandishing with old Germanic and Celtic symbols as if they still would be felt in the same way as they were fifteen hundred or two thousand years ago. I consider the revival of old paganism along with its symbols as kitsch (yet I am certainly interested in ancient cultures, albeit in a more archeological/historical way). Whether we like it or not, our tangible heritage lies in Christianity.
It does indeed. That, however, does not mean that we have to remain christians. An oven is an inevitable part in the process of a bread's development — but that doesn't mean the bread needs to stay in the oven forever!

As for symbols: 'our' political initiatives do not really have much of a choice: the usage of any symbol will, as long as we can look ahead, be a potential tool in the rhetoric of our opponents. Sticking to e.g. the somewhat cartoonish representation of the Lion of Flanders, as the Vlaams Belang does, is all there can (and needs to) be done.

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2016 May 28 16:38
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Post: #15
RE: The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
(2016 May 28 16:38)Quaestor Wrote:  While I agree with your assessment, I have to disagree with the last sentence, as first Fortuyn, and now Wilders actually made/make it clear to people that these liberal values are NOT universal — but belong to a specific Western 'modernity', that is now under threat by the immigrating hordes from Retardistan. That does not mean that we have to put all of these liberal values on a shield and lift it above our heads; what's important here is the "us vs. them" dichotomy, that once again has been made visible to less perceptive majority of our volk.


Good, they have talked about our culture in terms of 'that it has gone through the washing machine of the Enlightenment', or words of the same scope. I have often encountered the word 'Enlightenment' in online conversations or opinion articles and interviews coming from people who have and had sympathy for Wilders and Fortuyn. It serves as a kind of magical word: 'oh, look we have had the Enlightenment, and because of that, we live in the wonderful free world we know today', ah, yes the Enlightenment'.
It's not that everything that originates from the Enlightenment is necessarily wrong or mistaken, but that it is presented as the only way or truth, a huge discovery made in the Modern Era, that came to fruition from the 18th century onwards. Before that time began, people were like blindfolded.
Surely Fortuyn and Wilders see those apostles of 'freedom' as the one and only examples, without penetrating much deeper into other aspects of the more remote history. Fortuyn had certainly more intellectual depth than Wilders has, but as a queer the "Enlightenment' must have appealed more than anything to him.
Wilders' and Fortuyn's worldview is that of the open society: us vs them doesn't go along the lines of ethnicity and corresponding identity (except for some shared traditional feasts): Wilders wouldn't mind a large Moroccan or Turkish community within our borders, when they'd only fully accept the 'enlighted' values and lived up to them. Lots of Dutch think along the same lines: as long as them swarthies work honestly for their money, don't abuse welfare and behave like normal citizens, they don't give a damn.
2016 May 31 19:31
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Post: #16
RE: The resurrection of / De wederopstanding van het Vlaams Belang
(2016 May 31 19:31)Sincfal Wrote:  
(2016 May 28 16:38)Quaestor Wrote:  While I agree with your assessment, I have to disagree with the last sentence, as first Fortuyn, and now Wilders actually made/make it clear to people that these liberal values are NOT universal — but belong to a specific Western 'modernity', that is now under threat by the immigrating hordes from Retardistan. That does not mean that we have to put all of these liberal values on a shield and lift it above our heads; what's important here is the "us vs. them" dichotomy, that once again has been made visible to less perceptive majority of our volk.

Good, they have talked about our culture in terms of 'that it has gone through the washing machine of the Enlightenment', or words of the same scope. I have often encountered the word 'Enlightenment' in online conversations or opinion articles and interviews coming from people who have and had sympathy for Wilders and Fortuyn. It serves as a kind of magical word: 'oh, look we have had the Enlightenment, and because of that, we live in the wonderful free world we know today', ah, yes the Enlightenment'.
It's not that everything that originates from the Enlightenment is necessarily wrong or mistaken, but that it is presented as the only way or truth, a huge discovery made in the Modern Era, that came to fruition from the 18th century onwards. Before that time began, people were like blindfolded.
Surely Fortuyn and Wilders see those apostles of 'freedom' as the one and only examples, without penetrating much deeper into other aspects of the more remote history. Fortuyn had certainly more intellectual depth than Wilders has, but as a queer the "Enlightenment' must have appealed more than anything to him.
The core concepts of 'the Enlightenment' are no more relevant to the ever intensifying 'clash of the cultures' than this-or-that interpretation of the koran is. While these might offer some sort of a philosophical basis for the claim of moral superiority, they are, above anything else, slogans — rallying cries, so to speak, not ethical imperatives.

EDIT: I do agree that, as compared to those Koran interpretations, the idea of 'Enlightenment' has the disadvantage in that it limits its imagination (EDIT 2: I meant 'its imagination of the enemy' here) only to 'tyrants'; the concepts of 'infidel', and, more general 'the alien' seem to play no role. They do in islamic theology however.


(2016 May 31 19:31)Sincfal Wrote:  Wilders' and Fortuyn's worldview is that of the open society: us vs them doesn't go along the lines of ethnicity and corresponding identity (except for some shared traditional feasts): Wilders wouldn't mind a large Moroccan or Turkish community within our borders, when they'd only fully accept the 'enlighted' values and lived up to them. Lots of Dutch think along the same lines: as long as them swarthies work honestly for their money, don't abuse welfare and behave like normal citizens, they don't give a damn.
Well, to an extent I am certainly with you there, but look what the 'Zwarte Piet' discussion is doing. It does not so much change most people's perspective, but it *does* raise the threshold of what is considered 'behaving like normal citizens' — which in its turn brings the questions 'who is with us, and who the fuck are we anyway?' more to the foreground. So, all hope is not lost yet.

That doesn't meant our prospects are good. But they are not hopeless either.

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(This post was last modified: 2016 Jun 02 12:28 by Quaestor.)
2016 May 31 23:21
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