'The' Ukraine?
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W. R.
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Post: #31
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 12:00)Osweo Wrote:  Your reading comprehension's getting really bad. My map was a response to "all Ukrainians" being descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

Townspeople learn new languages quickly, what language they speak is not relevant when defining ethnographic boundaries. The language of peasants is what matters. Why do they speak Ukrainian? Probably because they are descendants of colonizers from the West, who colonized the Wilderness and brought there the Ukrainian speech.

Those colonizers were ‘descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth’, and thus Eastern Ukrainians are as well.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2016 Jun 01 18:45
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Post: #32
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 18:45)W. R. Wrote:  Townspeople learn new languages quickly, what language they speak is not relevant when defining ethnographic boundaries. The language of peasants is what matters. Why do they speak Ukrainian? Probably because they are descendants of colonizers from the West, who colonized the Wilderness and brought there the Ukrainian speech.

Those colonizers were ‘descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth’, and thus Eastern Ukrainians are as well.

Russian peasants in Southern Russia speak in a similar fashion to Eastern Ukrainians. And Western Ukrainian dialects are also very different from Standard Ukrainian, not to mention the dialects spoken in Central and Eastern Ukraine. Besides, in the modern world rural folks are the minority anyway.

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2016 Jun 01 18:56
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Post: #33
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 Jun 01 18:45)W. R. Wrote:  Townspeople learn new languages quickly, what language they speak is not relevant when defining ethnographic boundaries. The language of peasants is what matters.
Mate, it's not 1905 any more.
Quote:Why do they speak Ukrainian? Probably because they are descendants of colonizers from the West, who colonized the Wilderness and brought there the Ukrainian speech.
Can you actually substantiate that, except as one ingredient among many? I seriously doubt it. I'd wager that a massive proportion of people living east of Kiev even in the 19th century descended from people from the Ryazan Dukedom, Yelets and Oryol as the frontier was pushed southwards by Moscow forces.
Quote: Those colonizers were ‘descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth’, and thus Eastern Ukrainians are as well.
Your link mentions a specific instance of real westerners coming into the area, with Khmelnitsky's boys creating the Slobozhanshchina, but even at that point these influences will have come into contact with northern ones. Once Catherine the Great demilitarised the area, even this influence will have been muted, and the industrialisation of the Donbas and development of the litoral in the nineteenth century will just have finished the job.

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 Jun 01 19:15
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W. R.
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Post: #34
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2016 May 28 00:12)Temnozor Wrote:  First of all, being literally called 'borderland' carries much more implications than just a questionable nationhood. It demands an answer to the question whose borderland it is and the obvious answer in the case of Ukraine is – Greater Russia.

It is not necessarily true. The bordeland might be of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2018 Jun 12 19:14
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Zephyr (14-06-2018)
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Post: #35
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2018 Jun 12 19:14)W. R. Wrote:  a borderland of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.
whose defining feature is that its majority population were neither Polish, nor Lithuanian. ;)

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2018 Jun 13 21:25
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Post: #36
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
So many people have denied Ukrainians their own right to be a distinct people with peculiar characteristics that in fact it turned out that this conflict is already a pillar of their ethos itself. Big Grin

As for the name, I think it's really not "The" Ukraine, that's just a widespread solecism. Other languages use definite articles when naming countries but that doesn't really translate into English with the very rare exception posed by The Netherlands.

For example we say
A França
As Ilhas Feroé
O Luxemburgo
Os Países Baixos

But it's NOT really part of the name, we just use it colloquially.

The most terrible example is
O Porto

Apparently foreigners want to convince us that Porto is O Porto or even worse: "Oporto".

Facepalm

Luckily enough, names like Portugal itself or Lisbon, Coimbra, Faro, etc all have neutral gender just like Gales (when "País de" is omitted), Marrocos, Israel, or we'd risk people forcing Oportugal, A(?)/Olisboa, Acoimbra, Ofaro, etc on ourselves. LOL

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(This post was last modified: 2018 Jun 14 12:16 by Zephyr.)
2018 Jun 14 05:58
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W. R.
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Post: #37
RE: 'The' Ukraine?
(2018 Jun 14 05:58)Zephyr Wrote:  So many people have denied Ukrainians their own right to be a distinct people with peculiar characteristics that in fact it turned out that this conflict is already a pillar of their ethos itself.

The borderland is “okraina” (vs. “Ukraina”) in Ukrainian. Based on my life experiences I presume that most Ukrainians see Ukraina as a word in its own right, and don’t see it as related to okraina.

I believe the word “Ukraina” initially was a geographical term with a narrower meaning but then it gave the name to the whole ethnic group, and the meaning of the word expanded to mean the whole land where the ethnic group lived and had numerical superiority.

[...] just as it is not left unto us to choose our ancestors, so we may not choose our nation; we can only fulfil, or not fulfil, the obligations that come from being a member of our people’.
© Dr. Jan Stankievič ‘From the History of Belarus’

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2018 Jun 17 19:01
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