Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
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Temnozor
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 03 05:23)Mustapaita Wrote:  In that case they put up with a lot of bullshit from someone who "doesn't care".

Let me repeat: state relations and what people care about are different things. Estonia is Russia's immediate neighbor, so the diplomatic channels are likely to be busy most of the time. The only instance I remember Russians gave a fuck about Estonia was the Bronze Soldier incident. That was huge, but pretty much the only exception.

Me and most other Russians almost never talk about the Baltic states, while when you run into Baltic people (particularly Estonians) on the internet or in real life, the only thing they seem to be occupied with (pun not intended, but lol) is Russia. That's why we call them the butthurt belt.

(2016 Jun 03 05:23)Mustapaita Wrote:  NATO troops in Estonia have never been a threat, their numbers are small and the weapons are conventional. They are a deterrent.

You are knowingly oversimplifying. They are a projection of power at our immediate border. Say Russia would establish a similar air patrol over Cuba as NATO does in the Baltics – that would not be considered a threat?

Quote:and being mad with a tiny former province that today beats you in basically every imaginable human development index while you, the former superpower, place somewhere among the black African countries.

Westerners and their stupid iPhone indexes. I can only repeat that literally nobody is "mad" about Estonia, you are just projecting your own butthurt on others. Good for Eesti that they are well off now, why should that bother me? In fact, I have like 1/3 of my portfolio invested in the Estonian economy because of great profit margins.

Quote:Russians are desperate for someone that still cares about them.

I think I speak for all of Russia if I say we want just to be left the fuck alone now.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2016 Jun 03 10:56
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Phlegethon
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Post: #32
RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
Russia simply is too big to be left alone and thus also too big to be loved unanimously by smaller entities. As a German I know exactly how that is and have gotten used to it.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2016 Jun 03 12:05
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Flavius
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Post: #33
RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 03 12:05)Phlegethon Wrote:  Russia simply is too big to be left alone and thus also too big to be loved unanimously by smaller entities. As a German I know exactly how that is and have gotten used to it.

Except the Hohenzollerns should have continued Bismarck's diplomacy and Hitler should have not become a genocidal maniac.

The Russians, on the other hand, want to Russify everybody under the sun.

http://forumeuropa.net/showthread.php?tid=5955
2016 Jun 03 18:26
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Temnozor
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 03 18:26)Flavius Wrote:  The Russians, on the other hand, want to Russify everybody under the sun.

Only under the sun? How naive. What do you think Russia has a space programme for? ;)

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2016 Jun 03 18:45
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Mustapaita
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Post: #35
RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 03 10:56)Temnozor Wrote:  Me and most other Russians almost never talk about the Baltic states, while when you run into Baltic people (particularly Estonians) on the internet or in real life, the only thing they seem to be occupied with (pun not intended, but lol) is Russia. That's why we call them the butthurt belt.

I run into Estonians all the time and very rarely do we discuss Russia. On the internet however I think I've come across Russians and Estonians in more or less equal number bitching about each other. Russians tend to distinguish themselves with wild historical revisionism.

Quote: You are knowingly oversimplifying. They are a projection of power at our immediate border. Say Russia would establish a similar air patrol over Cuba as NATO does in the Baltics – that would not be considered a threat?

You do realise that every increase in NATO presence in the Baltics since membership has been a response to Russian escalation and harassment? And your analogy might carry water if Cuba had reason to believe that the U.S. had territorial ambitions against it. The U.S. did not occupy Cuba for half a century in the recent past. Besides, NATO seems increasingly unwilling to commit while the Baltics beg for increased commitment. Again: less about projecting power, more about deterrence.

And let's stop pretending the world is fair or that Russia is a superpower. It does not project power like the US because it can't. May be its time to accept certain realities.

Quote:Westerners and their stupid iPhone indexes. I can only repeat that literally nobody is "mad" about Estonia, you are just projecting your own butthurt on others.

You probably noticed I was talking about the attitude of the Putin administration.

Quote: Good for Eesti that they are well off now, why should that bother me?

Well you don't live in Russia, do you.

Quote:I think I speak for all of Russia if I say we want just to be left the fuck alone now.

Another thing you'll find you have in common with the Baltics.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2016 Jun 03 21:28
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 03 21:28)Mustapaita Wrote:  You do realise that every increase in NATO presence in the Baltics since membership has been a response to Russian escalation and harassment?

Examples please.

Quote:And your analogy might carry water if Cuba had reason to believe that the U.S. had territorial ambitions against it. The U.S. did not occupy Cuba for half a century in the recent past.

What makes you believe that Russia wants to occupy the Baltics? What would be the benefit of it? Or which territorial ambitions are you speaking of, do you really believe Russia wants to get Narva or what? You see what returning Crimea got us into, and that is a great piece of real estate with a highly loyal population that could not have been handed over to the Ukrainian coup government for reasons of national security. Seriously, the Baltics are not worth the trouble, even if there would be no military response.

Quote:Besides, NATO seems increasingly unwilling to commit while the Baltics beg for increased commitment. Again: less about projecting power, more about deterrence.

Yeah, which brings me back to: the Baltics are only a threat if they play host to NATO militaries. And obviously that's what they want, which logically makes them fair play for Russia.

(2016 Jun 03 21:28)Mustapaita Wrote:  You probably noticed I was talking about the attitude of the Putin administration.

In a thread that's about countries the people of Russia consider their enemies. So I have corrected, well ... originally Eldritch's mistake.

(2016 Jun 03 21:28)Mustapaita Wrote:  Well you don't live in Russia, do you.

Meanwhile in a country that's close enough to it and next year I think I'll move to Russia-proper. I have plans to buy a property in Crimea, actually. And what does it change, anyway?

(2016 Jun 03 21:28)Mustapaita Wrote:  Another thing you'll find you have in common with the Baltics.

I don't think so, since they invite much more foreign countries onto their territory and concede much more sovereignty rights to foreigners than we do. The Baltics just got themselves new masters after we left.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2016 Jun 03 22:04
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
Quote: Examples please.

Well let's see. For example repeated air space violations have led to increased NATO air presence. Current tensions and massive war games on the Russian side have led to the Baltics asking for more deterrence.

Quote:What makes you believe that Russia wants to occupy the Baltics? What would be the benefit of it? Or which territorial ambitions are you speaking of, do you really believe Russia wants to get Narva or what? You see what returning Crimea got us into, and that is a great piece of real estate with a highly loyal population that could not have been handed over to the Ukrainian coup government for reasons of national security. Seriously, the Baltics are not worth the trouble, even if there would be no military response.

I don't know what Russia wants. But the constant attacks on Estonian and Baltic sovereignty makes them nervous. If Russia behaved like a normal nation perhaps they wouldn't feel the need to entangle them as irrevocably into all kinds of Western unions and alliances.

Quote: Yeah, which brings me back to: the Baltics are only a threat if they play host to NATO militaries. And obviously that's what they want, which logically makes them fair play for Russia.

And the Baltics only host NATO because of the Russian threat. The Russian threat makes the Baltic states joining NATO legit and understandable.

Quote:I don't think so, since they invite much more foreign countries onto their territory and concede much more sovereignty rights to foreigners than we do. The Baltics just got themselves new masters after we left.

Obviously such small countries will depend on the protection of bigger countries. But at least NATO and the EU aren't colonising Estonia with foreigners (yet?) and impoverishing them with a crippling economic system or sending them to Siberia. Estonia has its own laws, parliament and political leadership. They are masters in their house and they've invited foreigners to protect them against their neighbour which is like 150 times their size and has a history of genocide against them.

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2016 Jun 04 07:14
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 04 07:14)Mustapaita Wrote:  Well let's see. For example repeated air space violations have led to increased NATO air presence. Current tensions and massive war games on the Russian side have led to the Baltics asking for more deterrence.

I bothered to check the airspace thing:

Quote:It was not the first time in recent months that the Russian military paid an illegal visit to its ex-Soviet underling. Last year, Russian military planes violated Estonian airspace seven times.

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/artic...ovocations

Seven (!) fucking incidents in a whole year. That's nothing. Stuff like that happens within NATO or between other countries all the time, it normally just isn't making headlines.

Quote:Declassified data from the Ministry of Defence of Sweden says that from 2011 till 2015, its airspace has been violated 42 times, mostly by US aircraft — both military and civilian.
Reports claim that the Russian Air Force as well as the German Air Force flew into Sweden's airspace unwittingly six times each over the same period, while Norway (5), and Monaco (3). Planes from Poland, Qatar, Albania, Bahrain, Denmark, Estonia, France, Portugal and Turkey have also been been listed as intruders. However, Sweden acknowledged that it sometimes violates others' air boundaries as well.

Sputnik

Not to mention how often NATO spy planes are trying to intrude into Russia.

As for the war games: the Russian military is having drills on Russian sovereign territory. Oy vey, it's like 1940 all over again!

(2016 Jun 04 07:14)Mustapaita Wrote:  I don't know what Russia wants.

Why don't people believe me:
(2016 Jun 03 10:56)Temnozor Wrote:  I think I speak for all of Russia if I say we want just to be left the fuck alone now.

sad

(2016 Jun 04 07:14)Mustapaita Wrote:  And the Baltics only host NATO because of the Russian threat. The Russian threat makes the Baltic states joining NATO legit and understandable.

That's a silly "the hen or the egg" dispute and we probably should just stop it here. I yet have to hear a convincing argument that there is a "Russian threat" to Baltic territorial sovereignty, though. Hint: Your country has much fewer problems with Russia than the Baltics, guess why? Because you are neutral.

(2016 Jun 04 07:14)Mustapaita Wrote:  Obviously such small countries will depend on the protection of bigger countries. But at least NATO and the EU aren't colonising Estonia with foreigners (yet?) and impoverishing them with a crippling economic system or sending them to Siberia.

Communism died 25 years ago (at least in Russia) and Estonians weren't special snowflakes in terms of suffering under it. Get over it.

(2016 Jun 04 07:14)Mustapaita Wrote:  Estonia has its own laws, parliament and political leadership.

EU law trumps national law. Estonia has also no sovereign currency, no sovereignty over its border, and its economy (while doing well) is mostly sold out to foreigners. That concerns most EU countries, though. You think all the free stuff with which the EU buys new members comes without a price tag?

The irony is: Estonia voluntarily got itself into the closest approximation of the USSR when it joined the EU.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2016 Jun 04 12:03
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
Forum ate my reply. I will paraphrase:

Even without Russian assholery, Estonia has good grounds to integrate westward: half a century of occupation. A momentarily weak Russia was seen as a temporary situation and security guarantees were to be had when it was diplomatically easiest.

Quote:I think I speak for all of Russia if I say we want just to be left the fuck alone now.

I thought we established the difference between people and administration. The Russian administration is enigmatic and gives mixed signals. We don't know what Russia wants. But the rhetoric gives reason for discomfort.

Quote:That's a silly "the hen or the egg" dispute and we probably should just stop it here. I yet have to hear a convincing argument that there is a "Russian threat" to Baltic territorial sovereignty, though. Hint: Your country has much fewer problems with Russia than the Baltics, guess why? Because you are neutral.

I agree it is a useless back and forth argument, I simply wanted to point out that fact.

As for a convincing Russian threat, half a century of occupation is convincing enough for most to take precautions, acquire security guarantees and deterrence to stop that from happening again. Add to this Russian rhetoric that attacks and intrudes on Estonian sovereignty.

As for Finland, it is true we have better bilateral relations. But our supposed neutrality does not stop Russian assholery when it comes to cooked-up conflicts (like that of the Finnish state "stealing" Russian children) and the employment of agent provocateurs for that purpose (e.g. Johan Bäckman). It does not stop the erratic behaviour of Russian officials or assholery on the border. Our relations are better, but far different from our relations to any other normal country. As for our relations, I hope they remain good and I hope Russia develops into more predictable and reliable neighbour.

Quote: Communism died 25 years ago (at least in Russia) and Estonians weren't special snowflakes in terms of suffering under it. Get over it.

Its not about communism but foreign occupation. The Baltics "joining" the USSR in 1940 and them joining the EU are two rather different episodes with few similarities, even if the EU might be developing towards a USSR-lite.

Disregarding their historical experience as butthurt shows how little you and Russians in general care to understand those that were occupied by Russia. In fact you disregard them altogether, as if they are mere pawns with no will or aims of their own. The Baltics, due to historical experience (as much of the rest of the former East Bloc) chose to integrate westward. That much is simple and straightforward. Do Russians ever bother to ask themselves why? Can they understand?

Obviously these matters are complicated but its easy as a Finn to champion the cause of smaller nations who have to navigate between great powers. I don't see a reason for Finland to join NATO at the moment but that too depends on Russia's stance.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2016 Jun 04 13:03
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Post: #40
RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
These air space violations are circulated by interested parties, but nobody even remotely trustworthy has ever reported them. And sorry, but I'd rather trust a used cars salesman than a NATO official. Basically because I had to deal with NATO generals for most of my military service. And it was the NATO who broke its word first by expanding eastwards in spite of an agreement that they would not after the disbandment of the Warsaw Pact.


Not in haunts of marble chill,
Temples drear where ancients trod,—
Nay, in oaks on woody hill
Lives and moves the German God.

2016 Jun 04 13:37
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