Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
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Aptrgangr
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
Op-Ed Russia's got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise

Moscow solidified its hold on Crimea in April, outlawing the Tatar legislature that had opposed Russia’s annexation of the region since 2014. Together with Russian military provocations against NATO forces in and around the Baltic, this move seems to validate the observations of Western analysts who argue that under Vladimir Putin, an increasingly aggressive Russia is determined to dominate its neighbors and menace Europe.

Leaders in Moscow, however, tell a different story. For them, Russia is the aggrieved party. They claim the United States has failed to uphold a promise that NATO would not expand into Eastern Europe, a deal made during the 1990 negotiations between the West and the Soviet Union over German unification. In this view, Russia is being forced to forestall NATO’s eastward march as a matter of self-defense.

The West has vigorously protested that no such deal was ever struck. However, hundreds of memos, meeting minutes and transcripts from U.S. archives indicate otherwise. Although what the documents reveal isn’t enough to make Putin a saint, it suggests that the diagnosis of Russian predation isn’t entirely fair. Europe’s stability may depend just as much on the West’s willingness to reassure Russia about NATO’s limits as on deterring Moscow’s adventurism. (...)

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-...story.html




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2016 Jun 04 13:58
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Temnozor
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RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 04 13:03)Mustapaita Wrote:  Even without Russian assholery, Estonia has good grounds to integrate westward: half a century of occupation. A momentarily weak Russia was seen as a temporary situation and security guarantees were to be had when it was diplomatically easiest.

Fine with me. I can only say this for the military aspect of this integration: actions usually trigger reactions, so nobody should be surprised if an evermore encircled Russia starts to get increasingly irritated by NATO moving closer yet again. An organisation, by the way, which has outlived its mission after the end of the Cold War.

Quote:I thought we established the difference between people and administration. The Russian administration is enigmatic and gives mixed signals. We don't know what Russia wants. But the rhetoric gives reason for discomfort.

Same vice versa, except Russia not only sees rhetoric, but actual military buildups at its borders, economic sanctions, Western sponsored attempts at regime change in Russia and among its allies (with Ukraine being a sad case where it worked) and so forth.

Quote:As for a convincing Russian threat, half a century of occupation is convincing enough for most to take precautions, acquire security guarantees and deterrence to stop that from happening again.

Gee, imagine how paranoid Poland must feel having been occupied by three different countries for 300 years! Actually, the modern Baltic countries haven't been on the world map for most of the time either.

Quote:Disregarding their historical experience as butthurt shows how little you and Russians in general care to understand those that were occupied by Russia. In fact you disregard them altogether, as if they are mere pawns with no will or aims of their own. The Baltics, due to historical experience (as much of the rest of the former East Bloc) chose to integrate westward. That much is simple and straightforward. Do Russians ever bother to ask themselves why? Can they understand?

I give them the whole occupation thing, the distrust towards Russia, the wish to look for allies since they are all very small countries and so on. What makes them "butthurt" is that they are overplaying their paranoia into the realm of the irrational and always seem to be obsessed with Russia, beeing so vocal about their dislike for it that it's actually just annoying – in much the same way Flavius does it. If they'd just behave a little more grown up our bilateral relations could be much better, despite still keeping each other at a distance.

"Whoever says that he "belongs to his time" is only saying that he agrees with the largest number of fools at that moment." - Nicolás Gómez Dávila

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2016 Jun 04 14:24
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Post: #43
RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
(2016 Jun 04 13:58)Aptrgangr Wrote:  

Schweden, Finnland, Montenegro, Mazedonien, und Gay Orgien... thumbs down

"And now if a whole nation fell into that? In such a case, I answer, infallibly they will return out of it. For life is no cunningly-devised deception or self deception, it is a great truth that thou art alive, that thou hast desires, necessities: neither can these subsist and satisfy themselves on delusions, but on fact. To fact, depend on it, we shall come back: to such fact, blessed or cursed, as we have wisdom for."
Thomas Carlyle
2016 Jun 04 14:41
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Mustapaita
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Post: #44
RE: Russia’s top enemies (according to Russians): US, Ukraine, Turkey and Poland
Quote:Fine with me. I can only say this for the military aspect of this integration: actions usually trigger reactions, so nobody should be surprised if an evermore encircled Russia starts to get increasingly irritated by NATO moving closer yet again. An organisation, by the way, which has outlived its mission after the end of the Cold War.

Sure, no one is surprised who understands it. For all I care both Russia and NATO can implode and the world would be a better place.

Quote: Same vice versa, except Russia not only sees rhetoric, but actual military buildups at its borders, economic sanctions, Western sponsored attempts at regime change in Russia and among its allies (with Ukraine being a sad case where it worked) and so forth.

What military build-up? Russia overpowers any of its NATO neighbours easily despite any NATO presence. Sanctions came into play when Russia started a war in Ukraine and occupied part of it.

Quote: Gee, imagine how paranoid Poland must feel having been occupied by three different countries for 300 years! Actually, the modern Baltic countries haven't been on the world map for most of the time either.

[Image: R1Vulr4m.jpeg]

Not an argument. Poland is quite jealous and paranoid about its sovereignty. As are the Baltics. For good reason. That the countries haven't existed as states does not mean their peoples don't have historical memories and the period we've discussed has basically been post-independence.

Quote:If they'd just behave a little more grown up our bilateral relations could be much better, despite still keeping each other at a distance.

The Estonians are too principled: they demand Russia behave like a normal country. Personally there's nothing I would love more than lessening tension, increased co-operation and friendlier relations. But it can't come at any cost, it must be reciprocal.

"Devil, I am devil." ― Pekka Siitoin
2016 Jun 04 14:46
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